New People

Here is where you can post your comments about the network, give ideas for changes and what live-events you would like to see.
GhostH
Posts: 1
Location: 127.0.0.1

New People

Post by GhostH »

I am visiting this forum for a long time, but recently i got something to say. Lots of users say how inefficient and slow the cservice regarding helping users. Many users got their user names tagged as fraud with no apparent reason, many users g-lined because someone else floods, many cant register a user name because their ISP mail in black list and its, again, not their fault. Someone even said that talking to cservice is like talking to his fish - no reply from both. Noone can say they are wrong - i personally know people that was trying to register a user name as well as a channel, they wrote 2-5 emails to every undernet mail adress they could find, and NOONE replied untill this moment. Of course they asked for help on official cservice help channels (#zt, #nastarnd) and still, at the end the answer was universal - write an email and wait. And they are waiting, some got reply in 2-4 days, some are waiting untill now to get reply for an email they sent in 2001.
I do understand the work of Undernet staff, and i am NOT criticizing them, i only respect what they are doing so hard to thousands of (mostly unthankful) users.
My suggestion to the Undernet staff - mostly ircops who help to solve problems on different registered channels and the ones responsible for channel registration - is to find new people. Few (but mostly ONE) ops can not help all the people on #zt for example. The users have to wait for 1-3 hours and they got kicked if they are idle for more than 20 sec after the +v. Its frustrating. A few people, no matter how good they are, cant help to thousands of users who actually need help and they dont want to move to another network.
Lots of people will be glad to help, and i`m not talking about explaining basics of X commands to newbies on #cservice, i am talking about more serious and committed work.
I am user of Undernet for 6 years, an op and admin (400+) on few big channels. For some reason, i am very committed to those channels, and doing everything to stop constant floods and abuse on one of them. I help to lots of newbies in every possible aspect of the IRC network and Undernet. I have LOTS of time to give and volunteer because i very often near the PC, working on the PC. You cant say you DONT NEED more men, anyone who visited #zt/#nastrand will say you DO need more men. There are many who would like to help, just like me.
Please post your requirements and then make a test period to the new recruits.
You may contact me privatly if you think i may help Undernet in some way.
Thanks.

kid

Post by kid »

'Of course they asked for help on official cservice help channels (#zt, #nastarnd) and still, at the end the answer was universal - write an email and wait.'
- There's no such thing as a official cservice help channel. CService is an Undernet comittee which takes care of the registrations/X part of the problems. #zT/#nastrand type channels take care of problems encountered in unregistered channels, gline-ing abusiv users etc.

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Bay
Posts: 36
Location: Undisclosed

Post by Bay »

#cservice is official, #userguide is official. There are more. #zt and #nastrand are not official.
I agree GhostH, certain parts of Undernet need more people, and don't think there aren't volunteers. There are, but many of them think that just by emailing or saying they want to help they will get opped and/or get access in that channel, so they can then show off to their friends.
Most help channels don't bother filtering through these users and finding those that really want to HELP and have the capabilities to. You can tell just by reading the email if that person is decent or not. People just don't care and prefer to have pre-written replies telling people that:
a) they are fully staffed -- what is that? Judging by the amout of users they have and by the fact that they are always busy, I can't say they are fully staffed, I can however say that they need more helpers.
b) they will contact the user at a later time if his/her services are required -- I have not ever seen that happen, I'm not saying it doesn't, but if it does, it does so at a very slow rate. What they are doing is they are putting users on hold so that they can add their friends when they want to, even if they are not the most suitable for the job.
What help channels like #zt and #cservice should do is have a GOOD way of getting people to help. A place where everyone can apply, and where anyone matching requirements will be accepted. Let's face it, they need the people. The help offered by #cservice is poor, apart from the few Official Helpers that offer good quality help, the rest are just volunteers which give answers like "probably" in issues directly regarding X. They also have Official Administrators that just "supervise" the help offered by users and answer mails (the replies of which never seem to get to their destination).
I've seen in the virus help channels that Undernet has users that needed help and had said so in the channel and helpers/ops that were "too busy" but were infact just /killing eachother with "funny" messages.

kid

Post by kid »

Can't say about the other channels mentioned, but help in #CService is always welcome.

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Bay
Posts: 36
Location: Undisclosed

Post by Bay »

Bay wrote:The help offered by #cservice is poor, apart from the few Official Helpers that offer good quality help, the rest are just volunteers which give answers like "probably" in issues directly regarding X. They also have Official Administrators that just "supervise" the help offered by users and answer mails (the replies of which never seem to get to their destination).

I never said it wasn't welcome, I said the help offered by most volunteers is poor.
kid wrote:Can't say about the other channels mentioned, but help in #CService is always welcome.

LordPimp
Posts: 21

Post by LordPimp »

Currently the registration process is quite simple. A few questions and voila. Maybe there should be a more intensive form, with more questions. No matter what guidelines CService enforces someone will always find a way around it.
The point is if more questions are asked regarding a registration of a channel, it will make decesion easier. Ive noticed one thing in registering a channel. All one has to do is type a max. 10 lines a day, and hop the channel and its counted as traffic.
Registration of usernames and the blocking of IP address because an ID has already been registered is quite a good idea. The emails that are blacklisted I think are emails like hotmail. However asking more questions can maybe reduce the number of registrations by the same user. I mean lets face it, right now it takes 1min to register an ID. If more questions were asked and the form registration takes approx. 5 minutes how many people would waste their time. Perhaps if answers are the same and the IP is the same the IP can be barred. Although an operation of this scale would require massive planning and a dedicated project manager.

But one thing that would be interesting is in channel registration process more questions should be asked. Purpose of the channel, age group, why they want X. To get 10 supporters is easy. Maybe 20 will make life more complicated and prevent lamers from registering multiple channels.

and help in CService is SOMETIMES seriously pathetic. Official helpers should be voiced or opped, and they should be trained properly. Also it might help if CService splits into several channels according to language. It sometimes is a fish market during busy periods. 5 different languages being spoken at the same time. And please lets not forget one thing all most volunteers DIE and try numerous methods to become a CService helper or OP. When they get it they get a kind of attitude that we are better then the rest. A proper documantation and a FAQ list would help too. Its just about finding the right people to execute such a service.

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Talyn
Posts: 26
Location: The Wild Blue Yonder

Post by Talyn »

As for documentation and a FAQ, I fully agree. I was approached at one point to include a FAQ in the xcmds.hlp but was never given any questions that CService deemed to be 'frequently asked.' Consequently, there is still no FAQ in the help file...

Most of their questions could be answered if they would simply include answers from the get-go. Instead of "LOGIN FAILED (Suspended)" why not add "email object@" or "see http://..." where the user could at least learn the reason why something happened, and what he/she can do about it.

There are so many instances of extremely poor language used on Undernet's "official" messages - even the registration process could be simplified, especially when a .ro user gets the 'blocked' message. Most of them are like "what does this mean?" The language used in that message is way too technical for the average user who speaks English natively, much less one who does not.

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bellea
Posts: 24
Location: Arlington, Texas

Post by bellea »

I am pretty dissapointed in the way ircops take some decisions!

A smart one : HJuler glined a protection Eggdrop and my friends ... without even checking some important stuff!


Some ircops do suck! That's the reality!

:classic:
Now all ircops can relax ... though i am gone :lol:

OUTsider
Posts: 435
Location: Netherlands

Post by OUTsider »

hell, thats a decent post you started with, a shame is that most people that already replied don't seem to understand it's intentions.

And then I hear something about #zT being unofficial... It's official as hell.
It also has the SPECIAL flag set and at the moment there are 2 level 500 who are both oper assigned to it. Also it's maintained by most of the ircoperators.
The fact that it's not mentioned in #class has personal reasons concerning cyn and #zT.

Also HJuler is not an idiot. Enough said about that.
Don't bother reading, I'm just the lame botlender, right ?

OUTsider
Posts: 435
Location: Netherlands

Post by OUTsider »

bellea: I checked your logs at http://www.undernet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1239 and thats probably what you are complaining about.

First of all, you have way too many clones in there, also some of your 'bots' where on compromized/exploited hosts. So don't bitch and live with it. You should have known the consequences. If you want to use protection bots, then ask the admin of the server you want to connect them too first before connecting them. Also don't use hacked hosts.

Hjuler is not the person to blaim for the gline, he acted correctly in this case.
Don't bother reading, I'm just the lame botlender, right ?

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cArLiLLoS
Posts: 209
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Post by cArLiLLoS »

Bay wrote:#cservice is official, #userguide is official. There are more. #zt and #nastrand are not official.


#userguide is official in so far linked to the User committee (endorsed by the Undernet administration), but mainly formed by volunteers with NO official/representative powers on the network. This means our responses to users does NOT represent officially the network while Cservice's is meant to be.

I thought this had to be straightened out.

Regards

Carlos

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lemuel
Posts: 408
Location: Southeast Asia, Philippines

Post by lemuel »

GhostH wrote:
I am user of Undernet for 6 years, an op and admin (400+) on few big channels. For some reason, i am very committed to those channels, and doing everything to stop constant floods and abuse on one of them. I help to lots of newbies in every possible aspect of the IRC network and Undernet. I have LOTS of time to give and volunteer because i very often near the PC, working on the PC. You cant say you DONT NEED more men, anyone who visited #zt/#nastrand will say you DO need more men. There are many who would like to help, just like me.
Please post your requirements and then make a test period to the new recruits.
You may contact me privatly if you think i may help Undernet in some way.
Thanks.



try to visit some helpchannels they will post topics as far as i know if they need more helpers. e.g Applications is now Open. :wink:

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YounGun
Posts: 164
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Post by YounGun »

ghostH wrote:Lots of people will be glad to help, and i`m not talking about explaining basics of X commands to newbies on #cservice, i am talking about more serious and committed work.


ghostH wrote:You cant say you DONT NEED more men, anyone who visited #zt/#nastrand will say you DO need more men.


Ok, now let's think a little on what this channels help with : modes, reops , call'em however u want to. YOU want MORE people to help stupid users, who have given op to unkwon persons, that have later stolen their channel? :o That is a bit simplist to say the least... that work is not more important then helping users, or newbies , as u call them.

I rather help newbies, giving them a general idea of the irc, give'em something to read about UnderNet. You see, helping newbies is like educating a 5 year old : if u teach him how to act from an early stage of his life (in this case, irc-life), telling him the rules, what is best to do , and what is not, then IRC, would be a better place. (this is quite utopic, but it's a nice idea). Education is the key.
Image

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draku
Posts: 36
Location: Piatra Neamt, Romania

Post by draku »

CService never needs new people. They're happy with their old timers. Those people must deserve their global level and all. They must have earned it somehow...
But this "old member = very influential person" system is not good at all.
Think of the big corporates lead by rich old people that don't do any work. Who does the work? The 25 year old employee who really cares about the company and it's performance, fresh out of college, trying to impress his bosses with nice weekly status reports, hoping to be promoted someday and work at his best level because his hands are tied at that moment.
The network is still growing, face it, there are not enough CService power imbued people.
Volunteers? Bah, never accepted. Fully staffed, will contact later, same old excuses around for so many years now.
So how does CService get it's people then? Here's how:
A level 1 * told me that CService has a team of scouts that are always on the lookout for tallented people to invite to the CService team. HAHAHA! And just where is that team scouting? On #cservice ? The trick's on you! The people that are on #cservice 24/7 are just trying to impress you, they're the young employees, you're the lazy bosses.
My advice: start scouting for people on other nice help channels. "Don't ask to become oper if you ever want to become one." <- translate that to "Don't join #cservice all the time if you ever want to be invited to help there.". Crazy enough to actually work.
And even if you do get new people, I bet they have to pass through dozens of tests to get in and have to do huge work to get promoted. And what are the admins doing while the new people sweat and tear? *censored*. And I have seen them do just that.
After you find good people on other help channels, cut them some slack. They took enough tests and have proven their skills. Not to you, to other people. Do profiles, ask around. Give them a chance, give them the power, supervise them. If they're not doing a good job, remove them.
A system without promotions would be the best ever because the work being done wouldn't be viewed as a prerequisite for more power.
And the power wouldn't be seen as a reward. People are not dogs, people don't always need rewards for what they do. Power would then only add a strong sense of duty in the helpers: "Hey, I have the power, I have to use it to help, otherwise I'll lose it." as opposed to "Hmmm, I'll use this little power that I have to frantically help, make a good impression and get even more power, mwahahaha!".

Just look at this forum, dear CService people. There are so many people that would do a damn damn damn good job. Who? I won't give any names, I'll just say their forum usernames rhyme with OUTsider, Bay, puterfixer and not only. Why not start here with the scouting?
:evil: draku :evil:

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Bay
Posts: 36
Location: Undisclosed

Post by Bay »

Carlos: Thanks for sorting that out.
draku: If CService started asking people from outside #cservice to become members, they couldn't act like snobs anymore.
And I think that most of the people that you mentioned the useranmes of, draku, as well as most of the other users that CService would deem good enough (is anyone ever?) would reject the offer.
As someone on this post (once) said, enough said.