Cservice - What do you think about it ?

Here is where you can post your comments about the network, give ideas for changes and what live-events you would like to see.
OUTsider
Posts: 435
Location: Netherlands

Cservice - What do you think about it ?

Post by OUTsider »

I have created this topic in this area of the forum so Cservice admins cannot simply lock it. (Cav: you shouldn't either).

The intention of this topic is to wakeup cservice making them see that a lot of users are unhappy with the way cservice currently operates. Moderators of there forum simply locking topics, only replying on questions that could be answered using pre determined answers.

Other questions are simply ignored and those threads there end up becoming discussions amongst users with no input from cservice, simply because they don't dare to answer these questions.

I noticed by wanderring around that forum that many users are not pleased with the way cservice currently works. I also noticed the same when looking in #cservice and by wanderring around channels. Also I know from personal experience that cservice doesn't work out nicely on the network. And I also heard from several opers and admins I know that they are unpleased with the way cservice works.

Cservice thinks they are God, and they have way too much power on this network, the network still belongs to the undernet admins and opers, not to Cservice. And they should never forget about that fact.

Also cservice should never forget about the fact that without users, they would have nothing to administrate.

Feel free to post any comments/questions/objections about cservice itself in here (do not use this post to post objections about channels, those posts WILL get removed)
Don't bother reading, I'm just the lame botlender, right ?

User avatar
sirAndrew
Posts: 760
Location: Romania

Post by sirAndrew »

I would have to write 2 days to say my true oppinion about the CSC but it would only get my username suspended....so there is no point in that, they won`t wake up and smell the coffee because undernet is getting bigger every day and they make rules as they please!
My only comment about this is that:
Cservice controls Undernet when it should be viceversa!
sirAndrew @ Undernet.org

8 years on this forum and i'm still the #1 poster around.

User avatar
ZeroSlashe®
Posts: 238
Location: Netherlands

Post by ZeroSlashe® »

well what SirAndrew said about username suspension, i don't mind if it gets suspended because this forum is loose from what i do on IRC (right?)

Personally i would like to comment on the fact that everywhere u go there is this, communication-problem.

I think Cservice must communicate with the opers/admins on Undernet (Not local opers, but global ones). What i learned is the better the communication the better things will go, of course local opers would probably look :confused: at this post, but i think it's the Server admin to inform the local ops about business what CService told them.

Conclusion: Communication must be better.
[img]http://members.chello.nl/zeroslasher/twat.jpg[/img]

Irku
Posts: 206
Location: bucharest

Post by Irku »

I'm more simple: CSERVICE SUCKS. Undernet would be better without X. Like EFnet. I can't even make a decent takeover nowadays. hehe

User avatar
mxxl
Posts: 46

Post by mxxl »

sirAndrew wrote:.... but it would only get my username suspended..


I think this topic was created to express our opinion about cservice. If you have something to say just go ahead and say it.

User avatar
dark
Posts: 28
Location: Belgium

Post by dark »

Hey all

There are always users that aren't happy with the way we handel, with the fact that we suspended their usernames. Well, there are RULES, rules that need to be followed by everyone. If we think it's needed to add new rules then we'll add them, but only to stop abuse and to make the handling of many things way easier.

For example: a month ago there were a few new rules. New usernames can't register a channel within 10 days and for supportering it takes 5 days.



You should think about this before you say something about #CService. Have you seen such a helpdesk on any other network ? Nah, don't think so.. I've been wanderring from time to time on other networks too, but when I joined their helpdesk about the services, and asked my question, NONE answered. Okay, maybe it was on a bad timeperiod, but the other day I joined again, but on a different timeperiod. Same thing, NONE answered. I'm quite sure that when you join #CService there's always someone to help, even if it's not an Operator, or an official, or an admin.

About not being nice in the channel. I haven't noticed anyone being rude to anyone, unless if they're repeating, not listening. Then we ban them, but well, I think this is everywhere. We have a policy in the channel too. Those who doesn't respect them will get banned. I don't assume this as being rude but just letting the user know when to stop.

Well, I think this is all that I have to say about this topic.
Greetz,

Name: Davy S.
Nickname: []DARK[]
Username: DARKm
E-mail: dark@undernet.org
Position: CService Official Administrator
Organisation: Undernet Channel Service Committee

kN_
Posts: 76

Post by kN_ »

OUTsider, you're totally wrong (and no, I have nothing against you). You always start 'a war' against CService. There are rules, as Dark said. Everyone should follow them.
I'm wondering if you're aware of what goes on behind the scenes. There is a lot of work to do behind the scenes in CService. It's not a piece of cake (by the way, CService maintains a database of almost 25000 channel registrations and 210000 usernames, in case you didn't know). You should think a bit about it.
About unhappy people, why they're using then our services? There are a lot of networks, we don't force them to stay here.

sirAndrew, this is not a reason to get your username suspended, because you're just posting an opinion/comment on a forum, wake up.

Again, think about it :)

User avatar
dark
Posts: 28
Location: Belgium

Post by dark »

Irku wrote:I'm more simple: CSERVICE SUCKS. Undernet would be better without X. Like EFnet. I can't even make a decent takeover nowadays. hehe


Noone's forcing you to stay on undernet. And takeover we don't need at all at Undernet.
Greetz,

Name: Davy S.
Nickname: []DARK[]
Username: DARKm
E-mail: dark@undernet.org
Position: CService Official Administrator
Organisation: Undernet Channel Service Committee

User avatar
dark
Posts: 28
Location: Belgium

Post by dark »

ZeroSlashe® wrote:I think Cservice must communicate with the opers/admins on Undernet (Not local opers, but global ones).


There are some IRCoperators in CService. And if an IRCop needs some information, I'm sure he'll get it from one of our CSadmins.

I think every person which username has been suspended or their channel had been purged can post an objection against CService here, because they're mad. Well, boohoo, they shouldn't have abused the system.
Greetz,

Name: Davy S.
Nickname: []DARK[]
Username: DARKm
E-mail: dark@undernet.org
Position: CService Official Administrator
Organisation: Undernet Channel Service Committee

puterfixer
Posts: 212

Post by puterfixer »

I agree that running such a big service is not an easy task; people involved in this project are busy, have real lives, have internal issues to deal with. I am being resonable at my expectations from helpers. However, the image associated with CService during the years I've spent on Undernet is best described with the terms: slow, inefficient, bureaucratic, incomplete. Allow me to detail.

Let's start with the documentation offered by CService on its website. I've read it all patiently and it took me a while to understand how things work. But for the new user joining the network, everything is very confusing. There is no website with step-by-step instructions for creating a username, logging in and changing mode to +x every time they connect. There is no clear explanation of what access is and how does someone obtain it. And if, God forbid, the person gets a registration error, the error message is so cryptic that they have to ask in other channels for help to understand this. Why is it so difficult to change those messages about free e-mails being forbidden for registration, explaining what ISP e-mail is, or what does it mean that the IP is being blocked from registering and what the user should do? Other networks have services as well, but they are way more intuitive than CService's. Your lack of documentation is the reason you are constantly busy with the user and channel database and the reason you have to answer the same questions all the time in the help channel.

Even that CService is a volunteer-ran group, it feels as bureaucratic as a government. Nothing changes in real time. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say that you are busy, or you're doing something for the network, because I cannot see any difference months apart. Whenever I sent suggestions (and I have, in several occasions), the person I contacted needed to talk to a superviser, who had to propose it to a group, who had to bring it to the discussions of the committee... Come on. Two of Murphy's Laws are: "If you don't want to find the solution to a problem, establish a committee to analyse it" and "The efficiency of a meeting is inverse proportional to the number of participants and its duration." Does anyone there have any responsibilities and the power to actually do anything on their own, or do you have to run a meeting and vote for each insignifiant change? I am guessing that you have a problem with delegating responsibilities; if you name someone in an inferior position, you also need to delegate them the power to take actions they think appropriate, not to ask you for permission about everything.

Even the website feels like a "beta" program in which users are all testers. It's been so long since I've seen major improvements on it. Some documents are way outdated, but nobody has the responsibility to remove or update them and make that a priority. There's that "Edit Settings" button on each channel information page; why is it there, if it doesn't work? Rather than adding new but incomplete features, maybe you should focus on completing existing ones. Take the Complaints system: it's been down for weeks at a time, I can't manage my complaints online (how hard can it be, to list all unresolved complaints submitted by my username, to have access to the actual message of the complaint), and it takes way too long to get a response. On another IRC network I'm on, I submitted a request for a custom vhost for my nickname; I received the approval in less than two minutes!! X has an online help system, which is incomplete for other languages than English (and even in English it lacks a few definitions); better than allowing users to change their language settings to languages with incomplete message sets, keep it turned off until you finish this feature and only then enable it for the users. The latest improvement on CService's site was that it now remembers my username when I need to log in. If that insignifiant change took months to implement, it makes me wonder in which year in the future the web interface will feel complete, intuitive and completely functional.

I'm sorry if all this makes the CService members feel bad. From the point of view of an experienced user, it's all true. I'm being honest, calm and as objective as I can be. I didn't jump in this discussion because I saw the opportunity to bash them, but to write suggestions which were ignored in other ways and to show the flaws of the system, flaws which you should resolve. I have nothing against the people involved in the CService project, actually I appreciate them for what they have started. But they also need to complete what they started. Baby steps. Create a new feature and see it completed. Finish documentation before getting started on another project. Patch up the website. Take everything that CService has created, see if it is 100% complete, make a list of what needs to be changed/updated/repaired/completed/redone, set priorities and dependancies, set deadlines for completing the work on each, name the people responsible with carrying out the work (and give them complete authority to do so) and so on. That's how a project is being managed: lists, priorities, deadlines, responsibilities. If you cannot or you are unable to do all that, you should resign from your position immediately. And one more thing - the failure of someone at the "bottom" of the organization also means the failure of someone at the "top"; when you have accumulated more failures than successes, perhaps it's time to allow someone else to run the business.

User avatar
YounGun
Posts: 164
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Post by YounGun »

sirAndrew, this is not a reason to get your username suspended, because you're just posting an opinion/comment on a forum, wake up.


The last person to have said something against cservice, and had proof , is now posting as a guest. :o ... soo.. are u still sure kidnapper? Forum usernames can be erased just as easy...

Noone's forcing you to stay on undernet.


That's a bit simplist, wouldn't u say? I guess cservice should give that line every time someone has a complaint : "Why are u complaining, noone is forcing u to stay." It would be interesting to see where that leads... :o In fact, let's just link the "complaints" button to a page with ur line (since the complaints system is always down...) :o

About unhappy people, why they're using then our services? There are a lot of networks, we don't force them to stay here.


I guess there is a new guideline in cservice... just curios, do u have a popup with this line ? Complaints shouldn't be overlooked. It is the only way that a mecanism can improve, by observing its flaws. Cservice needs to wake up, and realise that it's dealing with usernames *and* persons. Behind every complaint there is an awaiting fella, who probably doesn't know what's going on, and wondering why his complaint is not replied to.

As for comments about the cservice system, I have a sole remark , about X spliting a bit too often.
Nobody is saying that the system should be a swiss watch, but at least it should show the time corectly...And never forget that a watch needs new batteries once in a while..
[img]http://wiki.castlecops.com/images/f/f6/MVPLogo1w.gif[/img]

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 212
Location: Springfield, IL

Post by Homer »

ZeroSlashe® wrote:I think Cservice must communicate with the opers/admins on Undernet (Not local opers, but global ones). What i learned is the better the communication the better things will go, of course local opers would probably look :confused: at this post, but i think it's the Server admin to inform the local ops about business what CService told them.

Conclusion: Communication must be better.


Well, i haven`t been in the cservice family for a long time but in the time i was there i saw a good Communication between other CService Helpers and also IRC Operators.

Irku wrote:I'm more simple: CSERVICE SUCKS. Undernet would be better without X. Like EFnet. I can't even make a decent takeover nowadays. hehe


If EFnet is better for you and you wish to do take overs then jump to dalnet, everytime X goes in split Undernet is like hell, if coders will decidde to part X from Undernet, Undernet will go down in maximun of 1week, take overs everywhere, problems in many channels and much more, i don`t think opers will be able to handle this and many of them agree with me. I`ve been involved in CService as a volunteer over 2years now and saw the times when X was in split and when X is online.

Just admit it that its one of the best services it ever exist.
--

Outsider i have nothing againts you but you started this war againts CService when you got your bot usernames suspended by CService.

#CService has his own rules,
#zT, #nastrand has their own rules why only CService involved in war ? you don`t like how CService is ? just don`t use the Channel Service Bot and let the ones that likes it using it.
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you!

Melksedek
Posts: 39
Location: Everywhere in Romania

Post by Melksedek »

First of all, although I dont have much interest in cservice (I am being selfish now) I sometimes get involved in helping users that dont get answers in time(and I agree time is not there to help them all) and I really appreciate CS people for what they do.
Then, we shouldn't point the finger to one another in an attempt to find a scape goat for the unhappiness of the users. The major difference I noticed between 1997 and 2004 is that nowadays users are less "trained" in learning for themselves and want everything "served & cooked". It is a matter of education that we (oldies) should try to impinge upon them.
I agree with you puterfixer that documentation is not complete, but humans have a mininum IQ to connect and chat, isn't it?? Though not complete, it is deductible from context what you want to achieve.
Other problems lay in our way (floods, multiple username, you name it) and we should try to ensure safety first then knowledge.
I also agree that all compartments of undernet are fully staffed, but sometimes you need to have "locals" to handle these abuse situations(probably because they have the 'touch' to catch offenders)

That is all....
Regards to you all
Melksedek

User avatar
YounGun
Posts: 164
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Post by YounGun »

you don`t like how CService is ? just don`t use the Channel Service Bot and let the ones that likes it using it.


Noone's forcing you to stay on undernet.


About unhappy people, why they're using then our services? There are a lot of networks, we don't force them to stay here.


WOW! I guess this really is a new cservice guideline.... With the risk of repeating myself, but, HOW can u say such a thing? Is cservice that ignorant? Instead of using the complaints you can read here, making cservice a better system for everyone, u block any suggestion with that...errr... let's say, simplist line.

Instead of covering up, it would be best to admit that cservice has some problems. It's the first step in solving them.
[img]http://wiki.castlecops.com/images/f/f6/MVPLogo1w.gif[/img]

User avatar
dark
Posts: 28
Location: Belgium

Post by dark »

Youngun, first of all, read the message what that user said. "Taking over channels?" Well, If I'm not wrong.. is it prohibited, or am I wrong ?
Greetz,

Name: Davy S.
Nickname: []DARK[]
Username: DARKm
E-mail: dark@undernet.org
Position: CService Official Administrator
Organisation: Undernet Channel Service Committee