Undernet should change?

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Lestat
Posts: 21
Location: Piatra Neamt - Romania

Undernet should change?

Post by Lestat »

Officials are all old on Undernet, and new members are hardly accepted. Most services are already fully staffed. So, when you upset one, you pretty much upset all. Anyway, if one makes a abuse, how can you email anywhere when you know that the one that made the abuse will answer you?!
I think it is a logic in the 3 powers in a country. I think we should modify the system. Make some decide, others aply, and others judge. Also users interests would be better protected. I just hope that the ones that have all the power can give some away, to protect the netwrok.
Most newbies expect a fair system. I think at least the system should be fair, because there are already lots of lamers out there. I'm not saying anyone is a lamer, just that I want a fair network. I think this could have a good effect on all Undernet.

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Razvanet
Posts: 406
Location: Toronto,Canada

Post by Razvanet »

This is a good idea...the only problem is they would never give up the "Power" as they call it or know it. They are too used to it...they don't like "New People" That could change their plans...that's why when somebody get's in this "Team" they are "already brain washed" as someone said before...Nothing will much change i'm afraid...

Regards,
Dream what you want to dream; go where you want to go; be what you want to be because you have only one life and one chance to do all the things you want in life.

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K8oard
Posts: 56
Location: UK, London

Post by K8oard »

Razvanet wrote:...that's why when somebody get's in this "Team" they are "already brain washed"


I don`t agree with You here Razvanet, cause I know a few Admins and opers who are waiting for You (I`m reffering to all the Undernet users) to complain to them if there is anything forbidden running on the network, most of them they even suspend pretty much opers, they even delete their o:lines, most O:lines, so my ideea is to E-mail to objects@undernet.org if You wanna complain anything about anyone... Btw, this E-mail works better then most of them... A lot of people told me that they receive their answer(s) about their question(s) or queries, so I don`t wanna offend anyone, (hope non taken) but most of the Undernet admins, they are making everyone to run with their rules, no metter what, even if the rules are wrong (((: (ojly a few rules, hidden rules)... Anyway for the one who post this topic, just E-mail to adress above and use some logs too, at least 100 KB logs and be very specific to Your query and also wait a few days for reply.
Muzik,...It`s my life...!!!
[img]http://www.djk8oard.com/logos/DjK8oard2.jpg[/img]

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Lestat
Posts: 21
Location: Piatra Neamt - Romania

Post by Lestat »

ok, I want to make clear that i did not make abuses examples, though I did met quite some. And no, sorry, no official email address has proven to be worthy of trust to solve any problem. Some didn't answer, and the ones that did, simply told me that they don't do that. So I don't want anyone to be into what I was. I, unfortunatly, let down a lot of friends, though trying to help them.
More than that, I posted this to find you oppinion. I will make a complete plan and write it in "Undernet feedback and ideas" section that will be more explicit.
I was thinking of a more rational Undernet; because we are not that many, a representant regarding the way Undernet should change, at least for now, is not needed. It can simply be modidified the login page for users, so that they can vote for or against the decissions proposed(by officials - their own ideas or suggested by others). Also, to vote only the ones that can understand Undernet and the thingy it is in discuss, I suggest either a small knoledge test when creating a username, or one now, after the usernames are created - for the voting option. After all, Undernet is for the local users, and not for the Officials to feal important and decide for all. It only makes sense.
Ok, so that would be about adopting new rules. About aplying them, I think the accent should be put on "live help" - after all, IRC is a very fast type of comunication, if we think of the distances, so why not take advantage, and solve everything, if possible, on the spot. And the existing channels should be directed into solving any problem! Maybe creating new Official Channels, but that is another problem I will develop in my final statement. (not using neccesarily a email). Lots of time will be saved like so. The ones that should help, are dephenatly, CService Officials and IRC Operators (I don't consider here all-around help, like info- only abuses and complains). No more - IRC Operator that helps only if he wants. I mean not all. There should be some that help because they have to, because that is their O:lines purpose. (don't be cheap on O:lines, laque of help is not appreciated).
Ok, all cristal clear so far, but the difficult part only comes now: who will judge if a abuse is made or not? Who will make the Officials take measures against another Official? I sincerily never heard of a case, though I've heard of many complains. I've done some 2, but I don't want to get into this. I think a clear and clean sollution, should be in spreading the Undernet aup so that more users can find out about their rights and obligations. More about their rights (http://www.user-com.undernet.org/documents/aup.html does not say anything about that, only about restrictions - it says nothing about Officials and their rights and obligation - that should be posted and included in the Undernet aup - for all to know).
So, to put it short: we all should vote (chose) decissions suggested by officials (but not neccesarily originaly theirs) after a small test that shows that we know what we are voting for, make a more advanced aup for all users and lusers, and develop the help system by making on Official Channels a all-around help, that covers everything, so no emails should be needed.
PS: the email thingy can be kept, and it is for the best.
I hope you like this and I wait your oppinions and suggestions to make this (if this is the right way) perfect or as close as possible.

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K8oard
Posts: 56
Location: UK, London

Post by K8oard »

Lestat wrote:...who will judge if a abuse is made or not? Who will make the Officials take measures against another Official? I sincerily never heard of a case, though I've heard of many complains... spreading the Undernet aup so that more users can find out about their rights and obligations. More about their rights (http://www.user-com.undernet.org/documents/aup.html does not say anything about that, only about restrictions - it says nothing about Officials and their rights and obligation - that should be posted and included in the Undernet aup - for all to know).


I told You earlier before, what to do, where to complain if You have anything... also I have heard several times IRCops loosing their o:line or even O:lines due abuse and "power" thingy using against Undernet network... so my ideea is that, You must wait (dont know how long) for something to be made about Your criteria, this way You`ll risk to have Your "topic" blocked down. Also about the AUP... Hmmmm, I believe You`re right about they didn`t mention an IRCop and Officials rights. I mean, put it this way... I bet You`ve heard about Noreaga, Hitler and Stalin... and many many more, even the Chinese dictator... the way they run their own system, if You don`t stick with it, You`re out of the system, You`re not allowed to make any strykes or to say anything, anyway... Your point is 40% good, imho, but, there is "but"... You should try to see things different, some people allowed others to complain anything, some people they dont... Please don`t get me wrong, but I`ve been there, I have done that, so You should find out by Yourself who are those people that loves freedom and free speacking and try to stcik with them, don`t get "brain washed" by others who You`re soppouse to stay far away from them... Also, we have to run with this flag, is not our war, is the "power" war and it will be always like that... Try to understand that (((:

*** Enjoy Undernet !!! ***
Muzik,...It`s my life...!!!
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Lestat
Posts: 21
Location: Piatra Neamt - Romania

Post by Lestat »

ok, I heard of IRC Operators that lost their O:line or o:line. True. My point is for all that hold the power to understand: They DON'T lose the power. They just make clear to all what power they have. This way peopple will be more atracted to Undernet. I think they realise that is not such a big secret, since everyone knows what one can do on IRC. So it's for their own advantage to change the system. They will lose nothing. They will always be CService Officials and IRC Operators and Server Administrators. But (and this I hope they understand) it's for their own good to change things; it's one thing to have power in a 130 000 - 140 000 users network, and another thing in a 300 000 or more. This project I have suggested with 2 goals: 1. make Undernet more fair, and make it bigger (more popular). If they can't understand that, than they don't heve the right to have power here.
Undernet as any IRC network, should be for all to use, and users should be the main thing (they are anyway, just not everyone realises that yet). So making sure they get the best IRC sesion ever on Undernet, will make this network very popular. In time there will be a lot to win.
btw: thanks for replying. I wait ur next reply.

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K8oard
Posts: 56
Location: UK, London

Post by K8oard »

Lestat wrote:they don't heve the right to have power here.


If someone believes that being an IRCop or CService Administrator, or even Representative is equal "power" then, they must thinking about Albert Einstein, who made the "power" and he used that for people, not to subminate them, he never thought how many things people will use this "power" for... Hope You got my point

*** Enjoy Undernet !!! ***
Muzik,...It`s my life...!!!
[img]http://www.djk8oard.com/logos/DjK8oard2.jpg[/img]

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Lestat
Posts: 21
Location: Piatra Neamt - Romania

Post by Lestat »

I see, but you must consider that noone is talking about giving power, just making it fair. There are no problems (only for the old rulers) when changing the system. It makes it fair. Fair doesn't mean a power transfer. It just means right. That means no one looses his/hers power, just justifies his/hers actions. It's different from power transfer.

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Speed
Posts: 39
Location: Romania

Post by Speed »

K8oard wrote:
E-mail to objects@undernet.org if You wanna complain anything about anyone... Btw, this E-mail works better then most of them... A lot of people told me that they receive their answer(s) about their question(s) or queries

K8oard, dude, i think u exaggerate here a bit.. i am on this network over 6 years, and now in the last year.. i've send many many objections on the cservice mailing list .. and guess what? NO answer.. maybe u think i'm kidding, but i am not, and i got lots of .. let me call them .. friends who told me this .. soo is not just my opinion.

And true i saw as well opers losing them o:lines but this was because of them fault .. right? .. u know as well .. (the ones who got a job) when the boss say here is WHITE and u see is BLACK u have to agree them .. same in this case... but i could be wrong, who knows.

In my opinion i want lots of things to be changed, but this doesn't matter, nobody cares .. as nobody cares if u argue here for something :) ...
They got a nice status on Undernet .. opers, admins and so on .. u can't do anything about it ..
Some of them are good, others bad, ignoring users, don't give a damn of what he/she wants... in life u can't have all the time what u want.

But u know, there is an old word .. be hopeful! :wink:

Have fun all and enjoy.
If a man hasn't found something that he would die for it, than he isn't fit to live!

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K8oard
Posts: 56
Location: UK, London

Post by K8oard »

I agree with You Speed, but being on Undernet for at least 4 years, I never had the reason to use these abuse E-mails or even to get in touch with one of those users who are "behind" reading or ignoring them... Anyway my point is that as far as I knew since now... it was that objects@undernet.org work better than other abuse E-mail adresses... Hope You`re wrong :P no offence, but Im` just saying this, if the *@undernet.org E-mails are dead... there will be a chaos, trust me...
Muzik,...It`s my life...!!!
[img]http://www.djk8oard.com/logos/DjK8oard2.jpg[/img]

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jasee
Posts: 67
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Post by jasee »

Hello,

I've been watching this topic and believe a few comments would be necessary. First of all, Undernet is a conservative network. Have you considered changing your way and adapting? Ofcourse, you are entitled to having your own oppinion, but bare in mind no Undernet Official is paid for his involvment, even though some Undernet Admins are employees of the sponsoring sites. Furthermore, you don't pay for the service provided to you. They are busy already with other, more important stuff, and don't need folks whining. They do their best, you can be sure of that.

Secondly, objects@undernet.org is not a valid email address. K8board must have been referring to object@undernet.org which is a Channel Service Committee email address, and does not involve network-wide abuse. That is the reason you don't get answered to those emails.

Lastly, bare in mind this is just IRC. Don't involve emotions in it. IRC is ment to link people all around the world, but that's it. If you like helping, do it but don't expect things in return. Help because you like doing this. If you involve emotionally and expect to be paid in return for the service you provide users with, you might want to stop doing it. Yes, it is our moral duty to try and make Undernet a better place, but this is not the way. Do enjoy your chat!
"Gods do not suffer pride in anyone but themselves." - Herodotus

jasee
http://forum.undernet.org/