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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:18 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:02 am
Posts: 42
Again you are 100% full of sh*t, xplora... no idea how you ever sucked your way into that o-line of yours.

Removing the drones DOES stop the problem and DOES stop the spread, especially in the examples provided throughout this thread. There are HUNDREDS of networks out there that are constant proof of it. These techniques have all been PROVEN!

And you don't even want to go near the topic of going for the source (the hackers). You just chose a very, very nasty direction for this thread on top of the pages of network ignorance and idiotic replies to serious issues.

How many hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of channels do you have on your network dealing with illegal activity?

How many hacking/exploiting channels?
How many channels teaching people to write viruses?
How many trojanized botnet control channels?
How many keylogging output channels?
How many credit card trading channels?
How many child pornography channels?

Want to learn how to write a virus? Come to Undernet!
Want to learn how to hack a computer? Come to Undernet!
Need a place to control your army of infected computers? Come to Undernet!
Need a place for your trojanized computers to output credit card and bank info? Come to Undernet!

And why is this sh*t allowed?
Because Undernet is an "unmoderated" medium.
They've had that policy since the network began a long time ago.

The internet is not the same place it was when this network began.
You need to get off your lazy asses and change with the times.

New users come to your network every single day, many under 18.
You offer them hundreds of channels where they can learn how to perform digital crimes.
Personal tutors to guide them on their way.

Most of these people get a hold of pre-written virus/trojan programs, change a few parameters in them, and call them their own. A script kiddie has just been born. Bred from your network.

Now the script kiddie wreaks his havoc with all the tools provided to him... and years down the road, he starts to learn more about the code, and eventually starts taking bits and pieces from it and mutating it into yet another breed. He's not yet good enough to write his own, but is learning to manipulate code. All the while loading his trojanized clients onto your network and controlling them through your network.

Years and years of this leads to the people becoming skilled at what they do... because you provided them the perfect environment for doing it. Then one day the guy is making a living selling stolen credit card numbers in channels on your network, that were outputted by trojanized clients to channels on your network.

It all falls at your feet, Undernet. Very few people who do those illegal activities would have managed to learn it without the help of channels full of tutors.

I tell ya what... I saw a news story on one of the major cable news networks about "Computer Super Armies"... they made it all sound so exciting and made it into a real good story. I wonder how good a story Undernet would make if shown in the right light? I can see it now... video of a computer screen with credit card numbers flowing like water... they zoom in and have to blur the confidential data, while the commentary talks about the Undernet Underworld, a place were illegal activity roams free... the wild west of the Internet! With all the stuff talked about on this thread, I'm sure the news story would turn out very exciting for the people at home that wonder what those viruses they keep removing are actually doing behind the scenes.

This network's been my digital home for over 12 years... but to be very honest, I'd rather it be shut down than allowed to freely harbor all this illegal activity. Dalnet may suck, but it's clean, and you'll be hard-pressed to find any channel on that network with illegal activity taking place in it. Why don't I just leave here and go there? If Undernet ever gets shut down, I surely will.


Last edited by SeeknDestroy on Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:25 am 
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Location: Massachusetts, USA
xplora wrote:
Drones are a symptom, not the cause of the problem, Undernet chooses to fight the cause


While this approach in the medical industry may be a sound practice, I must say that the "surgery" being performed on this network to "treat the cause" is to say the least, borderline malpractice.

The "let's see what happens if we..." approach doesn't seem to be working. If it were, then drones, such as the infected girlies, would have been eliminated long ago, and not been thriving on Undernet for at least 2 years now.

Now, it's understandable to argue that Undernet is a volunteer network, and people have real lives, and they cannot dedicate significant time or effort into working on this. Yes, time and effort has been put in by numerous 'teams', and I'm not at all saying it's not being done. However, given the amount of time. energy and resources available to those involved, it's a battle that Undernet is actually losing.

Sani has provided this forum with solutions, solutions that would work, and all we keep seeing is arguments to continue along the same path.

When is someone going to step up, and say something needs to be done from the top-level administration?

When is someone, besides Mitko, who is familiar with this thread, and familar with the information provided here, going to stop lurking in the shadows of this thread and speak up?

I'd love to see our Undernet coders provide some input into this thread.

I'd love to see some of our AE team, contribute as well.

Is everyone just 'towing the line' for the top-level administration, that seems to the rest of us to be taking the "ignore them" approach?

It's time to get this discussion moving, not today, not tomorrow, NOW.

To those lurking, this is your call... your call to ACTION. Be heard. Stand up and make your opinions known. Don't sit idly by, knowing that something needs to be done, in fear of "Undernet politics". It's time to give some consideration into the one reason we are all here, doing what we do, day in and day out. It's time to consider the USERS.



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:27 am 
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I want SERVER ADMINS and CODERS of undernet irc network and also WHIZZARD, WILDTHANG and others founders read this topic, and as other people say, if undernet staff dosnt have the time, THEN GO AND LOOK FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE IT and really care for a clean and safety network. also coders can contact sanitarium to work with him and some ideas came out, remember that 2 heads think more than 1...



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:24 am 

Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 435
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Ok, first of all, I totally agree with the fact that undernet should do something about the drones, second, xplora, yes I know AE is *trying* to do a 'good' job in solving the issue by attempting to eliminate the origin of the problem, the ones establishing the botnet. But you *HAVE* to agree with the fact that AE cannot do their job decently because they neither have the full powers they need (they are not a legal authority or enforcement agency of any kind and some of the ISP's never respond decently to abuse reports)

But the issue is, you already HAVE the information about the drones because in some ways (either illegal or legal) you obtained the binaries from the infected pc's and hope by decompilation of those binaries through stuff like anubis to find a signature identifying the owner of them, since most of them are too stupid and put there contact email right in the code.

I *know* from the past that AE has several spybots running around the network disguised to act like if they are infected drones in order to get the passwords in order to control and issue clean commands. And don't tell me it's not true. I have been working with the teams that operate them. But undernet by nature has the wrong approach when it comes to dealing with issues and providing resources in order to do so. Lemme give you an example that might look offtopic to this thread, but in the end you will understand:

Undernet has like 5 official (formerly mode related) help channels dealing with helping users and reporting eventual abuse, and hundreds of more unofficial channels trying to do the same. All those channels formed from one single channel (#zT). Why are all those channels formed ? Simple: The owner of the new channel was not happy with the way the original channel he originated from operates or the hierarchy. In order to get more POWER (access/status) they form a new one. The issue becoming that users need to seek in a jungle of help channels where only a few helpers are present, waiting for an answer that does not arrive. The solution: let ONE official help channel remain and combine all the helpers together, providing a much better service to the users.

Undernet has RA and AE and a couple more of those projects. Why is that ? They both actually do the same, but in a different way ? I think it is because of the same issue as with the help channels. The solution: combine them to the helpchannel.

Then there is chanfix. Ok, it provides a nice feature for users, but the real reason why it is launched is because undernet wants to stop having opers issue modes because they think it makes kiddies more triggerhappy and you think that script kiddies and abusers are more likely to accept a decision made by an automated system. Lemme tell you: I have talked to some kiddies and asked about there opinion, and they laughed and said they don't give a flying <youknowwhatsbehind here>.

Lemme remind you of the day when around 30 opers lost there o:lines on undernet. And why was that ? It was decided by a CFV that all opers that where known to do modes and that where considered a risk to undernet because they helped users in a certain way should get removed. Several active opers where removed, most of them related to mode related channels like #zT given excuses like 'you are not active enough on this network' or 'you are idle'. Hell, you folks lie to your own colleagues ! And again, don't tell me I'm wrong, because I have proof.

Then something about trust in your own colleagues, you folks don't trust your own colleagues, otherwise you would have enabled the built in functions like /opmode /gline and /clearmode, but you folks did not. Why ? Because you restrict it those functions to be used through (e)uworld only because it daily mails the issued commands back to a list of admins monitoring the activity of opers. Hell, write a bot that monitors server notices, since the opmode features generate a server message clearly stating WHO issued the gline as well.

CFV165: I still think this is a bad move. And the coders didn't call it HIS which stands for HEAD IN SAND for nothing, because it doesn't solve the issue, it only spreads it. In the past DDoS attacks where targeted towards the server where the oper resides that hello of the script kiddie, so an admin would know the issue was due to one of his members. Now thanks to cfv-165 which hides the server name in whois from opers and various other things kiddies decided to simply ddos a random server. Why is /map and /links hidden? To hide the structure of the network ? Who cares ? All client servers are connected to so called hidden hubs which are unresolvable in dns and the ip's of all client servers are listed in dns in the cname aliases for eu.undernet.org and us.undernet.org and in servers.php, so what do you folks think you gain with that ? Nothing, zip, nada!

Cservice/Gnuworld: Cservice controls what gets into mod.cservice and what not, I know gnuworld has the so called ACL+ feature which is an advanced version of the former host restriction for login. It has been disabled for users because you folks where tired of handling thousands of host change requests in the times of X/W. Don't say I am wrong, you know I am right.
Maxlogins: disabled for users because it was being abused for drones as well. What you have to deal with since then is that instead of one account used by 3 drones/flood bots, you now have thousands of accounts registered through proxy's/anonymizers and a hello load of csa's who have to look through the user toaster trying to identify/tag them.

Login on connect: A great feature that hasn't made it into 2.10.12 because the code was not tested well enough. I can tell you: it has been tested on many other P10 variations of ircu and works great, might be a little more simplified but does the job and provides extended security to users since there host gets cloaked without needing some customized script that randomizes your nick on connect, authenticates, waits for the host change to appear, tries to regain regular nickname and then join channels.

Child pornography: In the past there used to be a group called P.A.K.T. that has detected and reported several child pornography trading channels to the undernet administration. Nothing is done about those channels, and some probably still exist.

Regarding to cc fraud channels, drone control channels etc. I simply point to the many other posts in this thread previously written by others. And don't tell me Undernet is an "unmoderated" network, because it's not.

I actually feel sorry for people like WildThang and WHIZZARD who have attempted to create a great community for user that has been ruined by the mismanagement of the current administration and I seriously hope we will get back the undernet like I was used to back in the old days, even then more was done against abuse then it is being done now. Where people where treated like users, and not as cannon fodder for the script-kiddies and drone users just because undernet wants to remain in the big 5.

* There are 18587 users and 85332 invisible on 26 servers
consider those -i users being mostly drones or services and do the math, add 20% of the invisible users being occupied by drones and spam bots that are coded by a little more advanced scriptkiddie. Getting rid of those will not result in undernet dropping to become number 4, but more like number 30 in the rankings, something you do not want to happen, and thats one of the many reasons why you do not want to do something against them.
Another reason is because you are afraid the same thing will happen to undernet like it happened with dalnet ages ago.Huge gigabit ddos attacks that shutdown the entire network. It did happen to dalnet, but dalnet *DID* recover from it and at the point of this writing dalnet is on place 6 of the ranks according to netsplit (source http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/top100.php) but can also state that 90% of its users are REAL users and not drones etc.

Undernet might think that sani's regexp matches might be too broad and might also hit real users, but even if it does, that number of real users being hit is so low compared to the amount of abusive connections it matches that it can be discarded. Simply put a decent reason in it pointing users to a website where they can get information about how to fix the issue and you are done.

And despite the fact that most opers and admins might not like me because of some stupid untrue rumors spread in the past by BobsKC and mregit about me being someone who seems to have ddossed users and servers (which is untrue and that claim almost made me loose my job at the isp I worked at by that time) I strongly suggest to listen to seek/sani. I have seen his code in action and it is seriously being discussed on the irc-security list with several networks looking into a way to convert his code into a service module to be used on their network in order to get rid of spam bots and drones and it works. Ask Scot to forward you some of the mails regarding to this or subscribe yourself to the list and look in the archives. A network where sani has launched his code on is virtually drone/spam bot free.

thats all for now



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:41 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:41 pm
Posts: 33
xplora, you really have absoluttly no knowledge about botnets. When dealing with these kind of CRACKERS ( hackers is just a too general term, as of this includes both white-hat and both black-hat) it's just like any kind of war of you ever heard, you can't destroy the source, you can only destroy the supplies, resources. When you are cutting the supplies, the person will take more risks by trying to recover, also this way you have better chance to really get him. But not only you force them this way to come out from their hiding place, you also make them much more weeker. Read a couple of white papers about how EXACTLY do the botnets run, how they are born and how they get large. And one of the most important channel for resource intake are the DRONES. Drones are the ones who add new resources to a botnet, those are the ones who upset both users and both server admins. You may think they aren't such a big threat as the botnets, but they are bigger threat! As botnets without resupply eventually die out, drones are the ones keeping the flow of supply to the botnets. And if you destroy the source, the botnet still remains, and can easly be overtaken by someone else. I ask for you please read a white paper about Botnets.
We can go around the circle, that these solution expressed in this thread will not resolve every problem. Who said it will resolve every problem?! It will resolved a part of the problem, which is a start, and then we can think of other solutions to resolve the other problems. But by being ignorent, you just leave a wonderfull community on a suicide ride ... And this has started, because you can really see, that how much the network changed in the last 6-7 years... Also try to read a couple virus reports about different botnets, and you'll see, from none of them misses the text "Undernet" ...
Now would someone say, why do we do such a big fuss about all this, cause there are their servers, so they can do what they want. The truth is the some of the admins really want to do something against this, but their hands are tied by the high level administration, which eventually cause the disappearance of this wonderfull place. And this is will happen sonner or later, if no Action is taken. Because currently the main problem on the network aren't the drones, but the administration ...


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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:07 pm 
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Bah, ignoring a problem won't make it go away. xplora, you really need to see what facts are and how the network is affected by these kind of persons/bots/drones/crackers/haxerz/labishmasters.

You should prove that you deserve your place by doing something radical, something that would REALLY improve the undernet's quality. Something important.

Really, let's face it, your policy of " Hell, so what if 13910231920319023 drones are online, who cares? If they don't do anything against me, then let em be. " is really encouraging for the new breed of crackz0rz l337 h4ckl3rz to join and abuse of the undernet's resources.

Blah



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:41 pm 
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btw, xplora ain'T the only one here .... he is JUST a cservice member, like he cares abut the problems whe have.... he is just trying to show that he do something but actually he is doing nothing (you can call this beeing l33t) ... my bet will be that in 2years MAX Undernet will be closed... why ... because its a place to learn how to be Lame, or how to hax, look...

SeeknDestroy wrote:
How many hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of channels do you have on your network dealing with illegal activity?

How many hacking/exploiting channels?
How many channels teaching people to write viruses?
How many trojanized botnet control channels?
How many keylogging output channels?
How many credit card trading channels?
How many child pornography channels?

Want to learn how to write a virus? Come to Undernet!
Want to learn how to hack a computer? Come to Undernet!
Need a place to control your army of infected computers? Come to Undernet!
Need a place for your trojanized computers to output credit card and bank info? Come to Undernet!


This Sh*t is real, when i first came on undernet, i was seeking for mp3... and if i presume... mp3 sharing is illegal... Right ??

Well if you type /LIST you will se that the biggest channel on undernet is about mp3 Share ..... How more lame can we become......

Anyway ... i guess Admins, like Simba, Magic or someone else SHOULD do something ... or else your all in the same boat...



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:46 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:41 pm
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Actually you got the positions mixed up :)
xplora - cservice coordinator
magic - user-com coordinator and server admin
simba - user-com admin

also those of you don't know tie the hands of others ...


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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:31 pm 
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Location: Panamá, Panamá City
yup, dont blame xplora for this, he dosnt have the enough power to do the changes here, he is an OPER and COORDINATOR, but just that, the problem come for the high administration not from him or others opers. and I also know that theres alot of opers/admins who wanna make changes, but they have their hands tie as someone else said =)



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:47 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:41 pm
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Well actually blame xplora too and the others too for this :p He has a little more power over the whole thing than us :)


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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:53 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:02 am
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I don't blame xplora for not doing something about the drones... he may be a freshly made oper... but he's as powerless as any other regular oper when it comes to getting the toplevel administration to force the other servers to do something about the common spambots/drones.

What I do blame xplora for is acting like someone's puppet in his posts on this forum. The only thing he posted on here were lame excuses, statements that made no sense at all, and in general complete ignorance combined with lack of knowledge on the subject. What I wonder is, who was it pulling the puppet's strings to try and BS their way out of giving a real/serious reply to this thread.

When is an Undernet coder, server admin, or top level admin (whoever you mysterious ppl are) going to offer a serious response to this thread? We already know you have some of the tools to do this, but not all servers choose to run them. WHY NOT?
If you don't want to provide a minimal amount of protection for your users, de-link your server and let someone else take your place. Stop clinging to that power and drone-inflated false user count and take some responsibility.

SanitariuM


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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:38 am 
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I love Undernet, but am also getting tired of all the drones too.
I have been here many years and don't wish to join another net.
If something isn't done we all may not have a choice.
I wish you guys would give SeekandDistroys ideas a go.
(Before the fakes outnumber the real peoples.)
~#///////>


Last edited by sh0cknock on Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:05 am 
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We debate too much and for what? Everything it's in vain, i think.

And then again if someone would've care; someone from the top i'm sure he/she would've do a long time ago something. Drones always has been a problem to UnderNet since i joined the network but now things got changed dramatically, there are more and more drones. Now we can't force those who can actually do something to do it, now can we? We need to ask ourselves, what if they do not care? if they don't, everything related to this thread was in vain but more than likely i'm pretty sure they do not care therefore this thread is in vain. sorry for being so negative but that's how it is.

UnderNet is not the same o' network that I know. management has changed, people got changed, they all starving for "virtual power" so they can rule the network, NOT. I think they have forgotten this is just IRC and still are human beings just like everybody else and the power they got it's just a virtual one, this is what they've forgotten.

I'm blaming the both sides those who can do something about it and those who wants to ruin the network (hackers, stupid kids) anyhow the network is already ruined, it's just a matter of time when it gets shut down but it's just a question of when.



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:56 am 
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Spidel wrote:
And then again if someone would've care; someone from the top i'm sure he/she would've do a long time ago something


We debate because we do care Spidel.

We generate discussion because we KNOW that there are server admins that share the SAME feelings as we do, but their hands are tied due to the ignorance of the top level administration.

We debate in the hopes that the server admins that DO share the same feelings, come out from behind their monitors and STAND UP and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, it's TIME FOR ACTION, and it's TIME to DO SOMETHING, regardless of the top level adminstrations "consequences".

After all, these ARE server admins we're talking about, they are not puppets to an adminisration that seems to continually take a stance of "ignore it it will go away", that philosophy has been in existence for way too long now, and it's only making the network suffer, the bandwidth of the network suffer, the netsplits more and more frequent, and for what, to satisfy someones power hungry dictatorial stance that "what I say goes?"

The current administration by their silence to this thread, is only showing their true colors. They show the thousands of users that have read this thread that they actually DO NOT CARE about the users of this network, and are out for their own political power, and control over the masses. THIS IS NOT WHAT IRC IS ABOUT.

I will once again call for server admins, Undernet coders, and any that share in the viewpoints presented in this thread, to STAND UP for the USERS of this network, and engage in this discussion. It is our only chance to clean up this mess of drones and other issues that have been long since overdue for attention, yet constantly ignored by the top level administration.

It's time for ACTION.



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:03 am 

Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:56 am
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Hello Undernet. I register here only for post comments here. I (and i think many more other users) are sick of the drones. Always get spammed.

So why don't ask someone who can write a regex to get GLine on connect bots like Apolo17 Gabriel15 etc. etc. and for the other type?
And why noone from the coders/big administrators don't post here?
All users want to fix this problem with the drones. I know it is not easy, but it can't hurt to try.


//msg posting.php?mode=reply&f=9&t=7846 support YES


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