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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:18 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:02 am
Posts: 42
So is anyone representing Undernet going to reply to the real issue here, or are you all just gonna flame each other in an attempt to divert the issue like I keep seeing happening?

In case you don't feel like scrolling, the real issue here is drones on Undernet and the measures being taken to protect users of this network from spams and attacks.

I've given several examples and suggestions of ways these things can be drastically reduced to make this network a safer environment for everyone.

Almost every IRCop I've talked to on this network has basically told me that protecting users is not their responsibility. Their only responsibility is keeping their own server connected. This is the true issue here... is protection of users entirely the user's responsibility, or should the network do whatever is reasonably possible to keep the network clean?

Think of this like yahoo mail for example. Yahoo mail is a free service (like Undernet) provided to users.
Now if viruses are sent out by the millions to yahoo mail users, and the messages can be easily detected and
blocked/removed, they will do so to protect their users (Server-side filters). They don't leave it completely up to the
user to protect themselves, they aid in your protection whenever possible.

The longer you ignore these problems, the more the problems continue to grow.
Spambots like those girly ones (Aldora12, Lolita23, Mary16) should be EXTINCT by now!
The reason they aren't is big networks like Undernet continue to allow them to spread themselves.
For every one user that finds the virus and removes it, 2 more get infected as a result of being allowed to connect and spam.

People wonder why IRC seems to be growing extinct... it's because the big ones representing IRC as a whole like Undernet allow these problems to grow. IRC isn't a safe place if the network isn't doing it's part to keep it safe!

There is no good reason IRC should grow extinct folks! With the aid of scripts you can do almost anything with IRC... make it look exactly like MSN chat if you really want to. You can stream audio/video, transfer files, everything you can do on any other form of chat.

Why do I care so much? Why don't I just give up on the issue... or go to another network?
Undernet has been my home for as long as the network has existed. I love the IRC community.
I've spent the last 6+ years becoming an expert in dealing with all kinds of abuse on IRC networks.
I KNOW for a fact that all these things can be done to protect users. I've DONE them and proved the concepts work!
I don't want to see the IRC network I love grow extinct out of years of ignorance.

Someone who represents Undernet... please give a serious reply to this issue. No more of this flame crap and beating around the bush, distracting the issue. You're really good at doing that whenever you don't want to deal with things. Show some responsibility... tell me I'm wrong, rip my arguments apart with facts and slap me in the face... something!

SanitariuM @ Undernet


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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:56 am 
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Well, i must say that i'm with SeeknDestroy, `Dan and ALL THE USERS THAT COMPLAIN about lazy opers/admins

Actually, all my time here on Undernet...i complained...why is that ? CAN I ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ? other than ban girly bots that join my channels ? or the channels i'm in ? NO. the service is provided by servers admins which should freakin' take care of it...why would i need to fill up my ban list with girly bots nickname patterns ? why don't YOU (being the admins/opers) take care of it for all of us ?

Mitko told `Dan something that was (say at least) rude...when `Dan complained about "abusers.users.undernet.org". Either you didn't read the post, or you're just ignorant.

Then again, you people (opers/admins/officials and so on) always wanted to keep things "classic". When people want to take action, there is no one to coordinate them...but you dare tell us "ohhh you always complain about this and bla bla bla"...how could you do that ? it's your god damn responsability...why should i wait 3 days before i get helped on #zT or #report-abuse ? oh ffs, i always reported floods to them with FULL LOGS, and never saw 1 g-line...

some years ago i used to help out on #CService ... did anyone notice that ? no, because actually NO ONE CARES. why should i wait 4 years before someone sees my efforts in there ? why should i do their job ? you call them "volunteers", but they are actually slaves that do YOUR JOB. stop running from the facts, stop hiding the truth...you're the only ones that DO NOT KNOW that WE KNOW.

Afraid of being ddosed ? that's why you don't g-line all those freakin' stupid script-kiddies ? well, you get ddosed anyway...so why the hell avoid something which will hit you anyway ? try to fight back...keep linking more servers and so on...

some of your policies are not only STUPID, but too classic to be followed. you can call me whatever you want, but you shouldn't ignore MY OPINION, nor `Dan's opinion, nor SeeknDestroy's opinion (actually you should listen to him because he knows a whole lot of things about drones and so on...why do you think he struggles so much ?) nor anyone else's opinion. actually, you should be better as we complain more...you should be motivated to get better...when people complain.

we grow tired with your ignorance. you should grow tired of our complaints and start doing something about 'em...you probably complain of others, saying that files get stuck up their desks up to the ceiling...but what do you do ? when are you going to take action about all these complaints which are your responsability to take care of ?

LE: you'll probably say that you all have personal lives...then why did you take this job ? maybe there's someone else with more time to "waste" than you...you knew this was time consuming even before you got the jobs of admins/opers/bla bla and so on...so either rise up to the expectations or let somebody else do it :)



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:52 am 
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Some motd parts:

newyork.ny.us.undernet.org "- On this server you may run 1 friendly bot."
Helsinki.FI.EU.Undernet.org "- - Friendly bots are welcome, abusive ones will not be tolerated."
Tampa.FL.US.Undernet.org "- | Non-abusive bots are allowed. | w"
Bucharest.RO.EU.Undernet.Org "Botii abuzivi NU sunt tolerati."

etc.

Don't say its not our business because it is! We (normal users) are flooded.



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:53 pm 
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`Dan wrote:
Some motd parts:

newyork.ny.us.undernet.org "- On this server you may run 1 friendly bot."
Helsinki.FI.EU.Undernet.org "- - Friendly bots are welcome, abusive ones will not be tolerated."
Tampa.FL.US.Undernet.org "- | Non-abusive bots are allowed. | w"
Bucharest.RO.EU.Undernet.Org "Botii abuzivi NU sunt tolerati."

etc.

Don't say its not our business because it is! We (normal users) are flooded.

The IRC Operators can only assure you a safe/comfortable connection between the servers, they are right, they can't protect you from drones all the time.
Those are just guidelines (MOTD) its up to them to decide who needs to be killed/g-lined and etc as they , and this is not something new...
ALSO if you don't want drones you could report them and help the irc operators by sending them logs at abuse-exploits@undernet.org with logs.
It is true that Their first responsibility is keeping their own server connected.
That is what they can do at this moment.
Have you even imagine how is to be a irc operator ? Don't you think that they want a quiet/clean network as well ? or you imagine that they just like to spend some money one some free services... , services that even free are not fun anymore...



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:27 pm 
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Dooku i am a network admin too , you know. My network has daily traffic from users , there was problems with flooders and bot loaders. It was simple: G-Lined them. I don't post for me because i know how /silence command works .. i post for those who don't know (i know about #class project .. learning users about commands .. etc but not all users can't assist that lessons). But think if i have something important to discuss on irc with someone and it can't be a public discussion and in that time i`m being flooded too what do i do? A lot of users are using just irc @ undernet and they doesn't have Instant messengers. And why we are flooded ? "That's my nick .. give it to me or i`l flood you". If server admins can't do that , then it's good to start a project with people who can do that (*exploits*@undernet.org ? they don't answer and the drones are at the same place). I saw some servers with a password on connection .. [..] /QUOTE PASS <rand pass> TO CONNECT that may be a solution!

Have fun.



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:44 am 
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that /quote pass <pass> is for clients without a working ident :)
you can make a bot/drone in such a way that it's ident would be working and verified and allowed to connect on any irc server :) (at least for now, with the script you specified in your post `Dan)

and btw, cut us some slack with that abuse-exploits@ thing...no one ever answers those e-mails, nor do they take action :)

would have anybody created this thread otherwise ? why don't you think of it that way ;)



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:23 am 
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`Dan wrote:
My network has daily traffic from users , there was problems with flooders and bot loaders. It was simple: G-Lined them.

A g-line is a server side ban, which means it does not stop those bots from connecting to the server. Bots regularly try connect, even if they are refused by the server. A connecting bot is still a problem, if not for the users, but for the server. Not every message sent at abuse-exploits@ is answered and some, probably, don't require any reply; however, actions are taken. Think about it, this 'action' is not necessary a g-line. What would happen if only g-lines were set? The bot would still try to connect and it will successfully do it after the g-line has expired. A g-lined bot could be a bigger problem than a connected one, that's why ISPs are sometimes contacted instead of just banning.



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:00 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:02 am
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Great job of defending the network/server point of view, Crosswing... NOT! lol

Ok... so in regards to the girly drones.... or any other common spambot... what IS the correct course of action?
What ya gonna do, go join a control channel and have an oper force clean them? You can't... they're not gtbots man.
The only thing you CAN do against all these spambots hitting the network is GLINE them.

Sure they're gonna keep trying to connect... so you know what they ARE doing... but what AREN'T they doing then?
If they're NOT connecting, then they're NOT spamming, they're NOT spreading, and eventually, they'll grow EXTINCT as
users slowly clean their PC's one by one over time. If you do nothing... the problem will just continue to grow.

Floodbots? Just gonna sit back with your balls tucked between your legs like a little girl?
They're gonna DDOS you and play GOD no matter what.
At least try to combat them... stand up like a man... haven't you ever seen "The Last Samurai"... where's your honor?

How about that gigantic, one-regex matchable botnet I've reported dozens of times now?

/who ??9????????? n%nuhr
/who ??8????????? n%nuhr
do that with all the digits 0-9

ONE regex gline and that whole net is gone for good... who knows what they're doing sitting on line... flooding users, flooding channels, keylogging and stealing bank info, scanning/exploiting other computers...

The bot itself is illegal, it's a hacked/infected machine... and the actions it's doing while connected are illegal.
Oh yeah, you're an "unmoderated medium" right? You don't care what they do.

That Unmoderated Medium policy is a load of crap and you all know it.
I've been on this network since the days of 14.4kbps dialup... that policy was set way back then.
Why was it set? Cuz Undernet was real big on the illegal file trading and that policy allows that stuff to thrive.
The times have changed folks! You didn't have millions of spambots/floodbots spamming and flooding your users back then!

Grow some balls, rewrite your policies, and ADDRESS THE ISSUES!


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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:38 pm 
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Crosswing they are coders , they can do something to increase the G-Line time to years .. I know that bewareserv's operserv can do that (p10) so that's not a good reason for not gline bots.



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:00 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:41 pm
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`Dan: Beware's P10 protocol is based on the original Undernet P10 :) Also, it's not with the expiring is the problem, but with the absence of them.

Alexik: With flamming and going off point, doesn't really improve this discussion.

Also by stopping the infectious bot's from connecting online, will in time make the extinct also cut's the size of the current botnets. As of EVERY botnet is totally dependent on new resources, this would really cut them back. As without infected machines there are no botnets, without infectious drones there are not such much infected machines.

P.S.: Try cutting the evil from the roots :P

Sancy


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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:23 pm 

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`Dan wrote:
Crosswing they are coders , they can do something to increase the G-Line time to years .. I know that bewareserv's operserv can do that (p10) so that's not a good reason for not g-line bots.


That's highly unnecessary. You don't want to use anything even close to years.
A huge number of the infected computers are going to have dynamic (changing) IPs.
All a year long g-line would do in that situation is keep blocking innocent users who get assigned that IP.
And even for the static (unchanging) IPs... those users might clean their PC... you don't want to block them then either.

Appropriate g-line length for drones like that is about 3-5 days.

Now here's where the g-line can actually benefit the user :

Every spambot can be analyzed and a pattern for detection found from it... often a single regex pattern.
While you're analyzing, you also find out what's required to remove the virus.
You create instructions on removal and if possible, provide a link to a custom cleaning tool.
Throw all this information on the undernet website under some 'abuse' section.

When you g-line the spambots, you tell them why they're g-lined (infected) and refer them to the link that explains
in full detail why they are glined, what they are infected with, and how to clean themselves.

If a g-line happens to block the real user (human) connecting to the network while a g-line on their infected self exists, the user is actually going to READ it and follow it because they want to be able to connect.

That is exactly how the g-lines should be handled... not blocking them for a year... that'd be awefuly cruel.


Hey Undernet Representatives... how long you gonna ignore this thread?
Gonna wait till it's got 100+ replies and 20,000+ views then lock it off? LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:34 am 
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sancy wrote:
`Dan: Beware's P10 protocol is based on the original Undernet P10 :) Also, it's not with the expiring is the problem, but with the absence of them.

Alexik: With flamming and going off point, doesn't really improve this discussion.

Also by stopping the infectious bot's from connecting online, will in time make the extinct also cut's the size of the current botnets. As of EVERY botnet is totally dependent on new resources, this would really cut them back. As without infected machines there are no botnets, without infectious drones there are not such much infected machines.

P.S.: Try cutting the evil from the roots :P

Sancy

it's not only the issue of flaming here...i didn't just flame someone...they know i'm right, they know we are all right, and they're right too in their own way (they being the servers admins / opers)

they can battle with the flooders...we get flooded either way, so why not get rid of them ? when they'll have all their bots g-lined and so on, believe me, they're gonna quit IRC :) i had friends that used to have 100s of bots...and when they got g-lined, they just quit IRC...

why not get rid of them either way ? more real users ... less bots ...

come on, wth...



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:44 am 
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I think that this topic must be locked because nobody is interested. They are busy keeping positions in staff list (quoted from other topic) than making undernet a safer place.

Have fun :)



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:12 pm 
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`Dan wrote:
I think that this topic must be locked because nobody is interested. They are busy keeping positions in staff list (quoted from other topic) than making undernet a safer place.

Have fun :)

why should it be closed ? we have the right to talk and we use it...

this is just like a political campaign...they always promise lots of things and barely do 10% of what they say they'll do...

let te topic open, so that others can express their opinions :)



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:42 pm 
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Alexik wrote:
`Dan wrote:
I think that this topic must be locked because nobody is interested. They are busy keeping positions in staff list (quoted from other topic) than making undernet a safer place.

Have fun :)

why should it be closed ? we have the right to talk and we use it...

this is just like a political campaign...they always promise lots of things and barely do 10% of what they say they'll do...

let te topic open, so that others can express their opinions :)

Don't make a statement without some solid proofs, when did an official network staff said/promised anyone that they will stop drones from joining ?! :o



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