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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:03 am 
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Location: Virginia, USA
Em3r1c4 wrote:

... if your an oper, an admin, or someone in charge, and you read this post..

please REPLY and tell me why you don't close these channels.

be precise and don't post a book with answers turning around the question...

If you need solutions, suggestions. let us know.. some undernet users may have more ideas and skills to do this then you guys do,

i say that cauz, look at us.... ( Undernet ) we are the irc network that keeps the most "junk" on our servers, and WE ALLOW IT!!!...

how lame is that ?? you tell me.

Regards, xplorer


I am NOT "an oper, an admin, or someone in charge" but I think it's safe to say:

1. Requesting one of them reply to your post with, "be precise and don't post a book with answers turning around the question" pretty much guarantees no one will reply. Not because they don't want to. It's the completely inconsiderate and somewhat belligerent tone of your post (or do I have those backwards?)

2. I don't think I've seen anything anywhere that states, "As an Undernet oper/admin/someone in charge, you are expected to close warez/credit card/e-trade(?) channels." If you want a reply, don't tell someone what their job is, ESPECIALLY when you're not accurate.

3. I believe most opers have earned their position. "If you need solutions, suggestions. let us know.. ," and, "something must be done,"coming from someone who has never proven themselves even competent in said matters (only referring to your posts here on the forum, which are almost entirely of the Jump-On-The-Bandwagon sort,) is not going to get what you want done.

4. While many Undernet users "may have more ideas and skills to do this then you guys do," usually only those not so standoffish are eventually enlisted to help with any task.

5. Just for my information (yeah, I'm warped,) why is this so important to you? The vast majority of people I see bitching on this thread already know how to script their way around it, or know where to get a script to accomplish the task. You all do know EVERY position of authority is still volunteer, right?

6. Finally, "and WE ALLOW IT!!!..." No, "we" don't. Not preventing something from happening is not the same as allowing it. I agree there are some simple tools to prevent some of the abuse occurring on Undernet, but not using such tools should not be taken to infer acceptance. Have you read your MOTD or AUP lately? Your use of the services are an acceptance of them. An abuser is simply risking (s)he won't get caught (or penalized.)

Sorry for the rant,
MrEen



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:31 am 
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This is exacty the kind of post i was expecting... :baaa:



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:32 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:02 am
Posts: 42
Quote:
6. Finally, "and WE ALLOW IT!!!..." No, "we" don't. Not preventing something from happening is not the same as allowing it. I agree there are some simple tools to prevent some of the abuse occurring on Undernet, but not using such tools should not be taken to infer acceptance. Have you read your MOTD or AUP lately? Your use of the services are an acceptance of them. An abuser is simply risking (s)he won't get caught (or penalized.)


As you said, MrEen, there are tools and precautions that can be taken to prevent and stop the illegal activity taking place on this network. The stuff we're talking about when we refer to illegal activity is the worst of the worst of digital crime. Virus writing, trojan botnet controlling, keystroke logging, DDOS attacks, teaching users to write viruses and hack, trading/selling of stolen credit card information, trading of copyrighted materials, you name it... it goes on here.

What is occurring on this network is what can only be referred to as "willful ignorance". You know it's happening, but take no steps to stop it. If your roommate in your house is growing pot plants in your living room (shared area)... and the police bust down your door and arrest you for cultivation... do you really think the defense of willful ignorance is going to get you off the hook? Hell no... it doesn't work that way in the legal system... you're just as guilty as your roommate.

There have already been cases of IRC networks "willfully ignoring" illegal activity taking place in which the police became involved. The defense of willful ignorance did NOT stand up in court, and the server owner/administrators were brought up on criminal charges. This topic is not a game, a joke, or anything to be brushed off as a minor problem of little importance.

I and many others feel that the networks' constant willful ignorance make them as guilty as the ones committing the crimes. I've got my electricity and internet back now, and rest assured I have not given up this fight. I will be writing to the major news agencies, law enforcement agencies, and anyone else who may care to listen. As a heads up to you, one of the main channels/groups I'll be targeting/mentioning will be the WhiteHats... you know... #WH and #Whitehat... whose members have been known to hack federal computers and commit federal crimes. Hundreds of people sit in those channels learning how to hack and write viruses, aspiring to rise to the level of being able to hack federal computers. You are very well aware of that channel's existence, and have made no attempt to close it knowing the seriousness of the situation. I guarantee you I'll find someone in authority who will care since you (the network) obviously don't.

Save yourself the possible public humiliation and criminal charges by doing what you know is right and needs to be done. I don't want to see this network closed, but I'd rather it be shut down than continue it's policy of willful ignorance. This is no threat or blackmail as you may want to call it... I see illegal activity happening, it disturbs me, and I am publicly stating my intention to report it to the proper authorities and news agencies. Some might say I'm morally obligated to report it as any good citizen should do, right?

- SanitariuM / SeeknDestroy -


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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:31 pm 
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i completely agree with sani, we should report this to the proper people, cauz since imm on undernet i saw some script kiddies that didn't even know how to add a simple alias like
/alias /hi /msg # hello people!!


now these kiddies can now ddos/hack/infect pcs..

do you remember like 8 months ago when undernet.org was redirecting to a haxorz page ? ...

i do..

"Undernet is the place to be" (if you want to learn about hacking/infecting people/ddos people...)

now its time to shut up and work, this tread had soo many posts.. and nothing has been done yet..

there is a LOT of usefull tools that opers could add to their script/eggs to kill/gline/close all illegal stuffs..

but looks NO ONE GIVE A DAMM!!

things needs to change, or else, it WILL change soon..

Regards SirXp :roll:



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:28 am 
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Problem with "willful ignorace" is that to do that would also require us not doing one of the things that we do do, and that is when you come across illegal activity, we tell you to take it to the police, or other proper authorities. unlike those other networks, we do actually work with those legal authorities. Undernet is unmoderated in the same way your phone line is.


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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:34 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:02 am
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That's a great notion, and I do believe that the network does cooperate with authorities when requested upon. The thing is, there's so much illegal stuff here there's no way any authorities could do it all themselves. I'm going to travel back in time to one of my earlier posts in which I suggested the course of action to take to shut down a channel such as #cc-power.

1) IRCop forcefully enters channel (bypass any modes to keep people out if applicable)
2) Log all user/hosts currently in channel to a file for reporting to authorities
3) Mass-deop/devoice channel, set +m to get everyone's attention
4) State (in bold) in the channel who you are, why you are there, and what you are about to do (shut it down)
5) Make it very clear to any who are ignorant to the illegality of their actions in the channel that what is taking place there is highly illegal, and that all appropriate logs and user/hosts will be forwarded to the proper authorities. Make it very clear that you will be using their real IP (not vhost/etc.) in your reports.
6) This will scare the crap out of those who thought no one cared and make them think twice next time
7) State publicly that all users currently on channel will be g-lined for 3 days (or whatever you choose) for violating the AUP.
8) Mass-gline the channel
9) Mass-suspend all X usernames in channel
10) Place network service bot in channel to permanately lock it as +si
11) Forward all information to proper authorities.
12) Use user/host information from log file to track possible channel movement/recreation with new name

Do this to channel A, then channel B... and before you know it, those in channel C will already be dropping a load in their pants and getting the hell outta there before you arrive.

This has already been discussed round and round, and still there's no progress taking place that anyone can see. I feel stupid having to explain things like the steps above to you... you're the IRCops, you should be coming up with this and other ideas.

- SanitariuM / SeeknDestroy -


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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:00 pm 
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So what you are saying is you are all for making a policeman's job harder, not to mention our job harder, this stuff is never ever that simple, if it was, I'd be a server admin.
Quote:
1) IRCop forcefully enters channel (bypass any modes to keep people out if applicable)

first bad idea, all theyed do is scatter, making ...
Quote:
2) Log all user/hosts currently in channel to a file for reporting to authorities

all this information useless since they would drop all such information in favour of other sources
Quote:
3) Mass-deop/devoice channel, set +m to get everyone's attention
4) State (in bold) in the channel who you are, why you are there, and what you are about to do (shut it down)
5) Make it very clear to any who are ignorant to the illegality of their actions in the channel that what is taking place there is highly illegal, and that all appropriate logs and user/hosts will be forwarded to the proper authorities. Make it very clear that you will be using their real IP (not vhost/etc.) in your reports.
6) This will scare the crap out of those who thought no one cared and make them think twice next time

who are you kidding, these guy would laugh at anyone that even tried this
Quote:
7) State publicly that all users currently on channel will be g-lined for 3 days (or whatever you choose) for violating the AUP.
8) Mass-gline the channel

they would evade (it's not that hard to do, and even easier for them)
Quote:
9) Mass-suspend all X usernames in channel

they would just register new ones
Quote:
10) Place network service bot in channel to permanately lock it as +si

they would just use another channel, or if they were particularly nasty attack the network (which of course applies to all of the above)
Quote:
11) Forward all information to proper authorities.

already done, and as far as I am aware they are already doing as well
Quote:
12) Use user/host information from log file to track possible channel movement/recreation with new name

see comment about dumping existing trackable info for new info.

in the end whose time is wasted more, not theirs, ours is, so is the authorities that are trying to catch these guys in the real world, but for them, it's merely a glitch in their nasty little world



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:45 pm 
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xplora wrote:
in the end whose time is wasted more, not theirs, ours is, so is the authorities that are trying to catch these guys in the real world, but for them, it's merely a glitch in their nasty little world



Till Then let them use your network to trade creditcards, cauz we all know that the "police" will arrest maybe one or 2 dude a YEAR on undernet and not even #cc-power related.....

who are you trying to fool? we all know you can do it, just try what sani just said. and with a Service bot in the channel with modes +sim

don't you think that if you repeat this on every channel they join it will solve the problem, and they will GO AWAY on another network....

This is the point here,, every time we give you suggestions, you ignore them and think really hard a way to talk your way out of it...

Is it really THAT HARD to freaking type /msg x register #cc-power =xplora ? after 2 or 3 or even 5 times don't you think they will just Go AWAY.....

your next post shall be positive my son :baaa:



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:47 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:02 am
Posts: 42
Excuses, excuses!... did it hurt when they chopped off your balls?

Oh no... the people will scatter! Oh no! What kind of BS excuse was that? Fitting for your line of posts though.
You know damn well you can /who #cc-power from outside of it as an IRCop prior to entering, and you can do a helluva lot more than that
through the capabilities of bots like Chanfix. You have an excuse for absolutely everything, and every time making it
look so much more as if you're just a puppet. Look at me I'm a little puppet.


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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:10 am 
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Em3r1c4 wrote:
This is the point here,, every time we give you suggestions, you ignore them and think really hard a way to talk your way out of it...

Is it really THAT HARD to freaking type /msg x register #cc-power =xplora ? after 2 or 3 or even 5 times don't you think they will just Go AWAY.....

your next post shall be positive my son :baaa:


While Patience is a virtue, CService's and accordingly X's charter precludes the use of X to lock up channels (in short it simply isn't allowed to be used that way), as for comments about suggestions, you might want to take another look, I give them a real world scope, and there have been some that have been implemented.

SeeknDestroy wrote:
Oh no... the people will scatter! Oh no! What kind of BS excuse was that? Fitting for your line of posts though.
You know damn well you can /who #cc-power from outside of it as an IRCop prior to entering, and you can do a helluva lot more than that
through the capabilities of bots like Chanfix. You have an excuse for absolutely everything, and every time making it
look so much more as if you're just a puppet. Look at me I'm a little puppet.


I'm no puppet, I'm simply realistic, you however seem to want to obstruct justice, that and the name calling suggests to me that you are simply not thinking any of this through and are clearly not worth my time responding to, yet here I am doing it anyway, I guess I'm just too nice a person.

Merry Christmas.



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:26 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:16 pm
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I dont think the problem of drones, hacking channels or illegal channels in general will ever go away. Most of the Opers don't want to mess with drone runners for fear of attacks. CService is only applicable to channels with X... this discussion on drones has been around for the last 6 years or so and quite frankly you can not do anything about it. Script Kiddies are produced daily, loading drones isnt a very difficult task, softwares are available to do it. There is adequate protection available such as +r, /silence that solves the problem. With the aid of eggdrops one can maximise protection to about 85%. The pool of IPS available to these drone runners runs in the hundreds of thousands.

The focus should be more on protecting regular channels from these drone runners rather than trying to shut them down. Hence I suggest, an proactive group be set-up led by xplora himself with open participation from undernet users focused on educated users on how to protect themselves, developing TCL scripts for eggdrops to protect channels and possibly developing mIRC scripts to protect users from traditional attacks.


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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:54 am 
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on a separate but related note, I would like to unofficially advise(?) that for the last couple of months now Undernet has been running a couple of services that have already reduced the numbers of drones on undernet by at least 20,000. I am however afraid I can not detail what these services are or how they work :(



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:07 pm 
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xplora wrote:
on a separate but related note, I would like to unofficially advise(?) that for the last couple of months now Undernet has been running a couple of services that have already reduced the numbers of drones on undernet by at least 20,000. I am however afraid I can not detail what these services are or how they work :(


I thought I was never going to say this, BUT I notice an shortage on drone numbers.
I was acctualy surprised when I started to notice that my scripts are not producing as much drone kick/output as few months ago.
Duno if the botruners got borred of doing it, or if they died of old age, but the number is going down.

Good Luck

Xaifas



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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:05 pm 

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I too see a drop in the usercount, that is commendable, xplora.

Still not addressing the real issue... drones are just a side-issue of the main problem, allowing channels like #whitehat and #cc-power to exist.
You know what goes on there, yet you ignore it, hiding behind your "unmoderated medium" policy.
As I stated before, the network created that policy way back in the start of the network, when ALOT of opers were head ops of WAREZ channels.
Times have changed, seeing an oper opped in a warez channel is no longer acceptible, so you won't find that anymore.

The internet is no longer the same place it was 15 years ago when that policy was made.
The amount of illegal activity has increased 100 fold or more!

NO DECENT USER IS GOING TO STOP USING UNDERNET BECAUSE YOU SHUT DOWN ILLEGAL CHANNELS.
They are not going to complain that you're violating their privacy.
They will THANK YOU.

Your policy of an unmoderated medium needs to go. Imagine if your e-mail account were 100% unmoderated and they didn't filter out any of the viruses that get mass-mailed every day. Your provider has an obligation/responsibility to protect you and to keep their service free of illegal use.


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 Post subject: Re: Undernet Drones
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:52 am 
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SeeknDestroy wrote:
I too see a drop in the usercount, that is commendable, xplora.

Still not addressing the real issue... drones are just a side-issue of the main problem, allowing channels like #whitehat and #cc-power to exist.
You know what goes on there, yet you ignore it, hiding behind your "unmoderated medium" policy.
As I stated before, the network created that policy way back in the start of the network, when ALOT of opers were head ops of WAREZ channels.
Times have changed, seeing an oper opped in a warez channel is no longer acceptible, so you won't find that anymore.

The internet is no longer the same place it was 15 years ago when that policy was made.
The amount of illegal activity has increased 100 fold or more!

NO DECENT USER IS GOING TO STOP USING UNDERNET BECAUSE YOU SHUT DOWN ILLEGAL CHANNELS.
They are not going to complain that you're violating their privacy.
They will THANK YOU.

Your policy of an unmoderated medium needs to go. Imagine if your e-mail account were 100% unmoderated and they didn't filter out any of the viruses that get mass-mailed every day. Your provider has an obligation/responsibility to protect you and to keep their service free of illegal use.


Bad example, virus/warez/whatever are not transmitted over irc, your email example they are transmitted by email, those channels still have a right to freedom of speech, regardless of what you say, as a result, shutting down those channels breaks freedom of speech, the actual trading isn't done on irc anyway so there is no point in trying to stop them from discussing it.



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