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 Post subject: Undernet does not have true opers. And that's a fact.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:45 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:53 am
Posts: 3
Undernet does not have true opers.

There *are* opers but opers are supposed to provide help to the network.

I've went in #operhelp 5 straight days and no Oper EVER joined or decided to help anyone. I know one IRCop who's always idling. I even talked to that person in PM while he/she was active and there were people idling waiting for help. They NEVER wanna help even when they're on their keyboards.

While I understand some are busy, why the hell give someone an O:line if they're not going to help?

Honestly? If I was an oper there, I would join #operhelp and help all the time. And, if I ever get too busy or don't have enough time anymore. I would ask for my O:line to be removed because it's rude to get an O:line then do nothing for the network itself.

So, undernet.. please, GET SOME REAL OPERS. if there are opers that never help the network, remove their god damn O:line.

Also, everytime I do a /who 0 o I see only 2 opers, the same ones I find everyday and they NEVER respond when you message them. 90% of them have +i.

I know being an oper is hard work but that's part of being an IRC Operator. Like I said, if someone can't take the responsibility, why be an oper?

It's moronic because Undernet is such a huge network and the reason it gets attacked a lot is because of no Opers supervising hello. It gets users hello off and they start attacking.

For example, a user takes over a channel... kick bans everyone, the person looks for an IRCop. NONE ARE AVAILABLE or just /ignore.

So, the person decides to attack the server instead to get his/her channel back.


Seriously, undernet needs some real opers.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 209
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Opers' primary duty is to take care of their servers, make sure they work smooth and steady, keep track of their performance, etc. They are not supposed to be a shoulder for users to cry on. Opers are the people behind scenes that make possible that all the hardware and software needed for you and me to gather and chat work ok. Undernet hosts daily an average of more than thirty thousand people, it's out of this world the capability of no one to attend each and every single user's complaint about losing ops in their channels.

People lose ops because they usually op unknown people resulting in a massive deop, chanops bursting into tears and crying foul for such a silly fault of common sense in NEVER opping people you just don't know.

It's not the quality of their opers that make Undernet a great network but the quality of their users.

IRC is wild, but the more you know about it, the more pleasant your chat times will become:

http://help.undernet.org/topics.php?what=ircguide

Peaceful regards,

Carlos


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:13 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:16 pm
Posts: 34
Location: Romania
Quote:
I've went in #operhelp 5 straight days and no Oper EVER joined or decided to help anyone. I know one IRCop who's always idling. I even talked to that person in PM while he/she was active and there were people idling waiting for help. They NEVER wanna help even when they're on their keyboards.
......................................................................................................
For example, a user takes over a channel... kick bans everyone, the person looks for an IRCop. NONE ARE AVAILABLE or just /ignore.


with my poor english i can say: BE SERIOUS!

1.the chan that was make example was UNREGISTER.
2.IF you has made application for channel register THEN you have to learn more about undernet like: #cservice #zt.(bet that you didnt hear this channels till now.)

and you come to solution or result :

Quote:
So, the person decides to attack the server instead to get his/her channel back.


and IF the server going down what?you didnt know that after server linked back put the chanmodes/ops/voice etc back? you have to bring down ALL THE SERVERS and not only one.so result 0.
old lamer scuze you type.nothing more.Only kids think like that and no ppl who use network for really chat(COMMUNICATION).
if you cannot understand that any abuse to servers/users is iligal and annoying with a lot of risk for law procedures and
if you cannot understand that the network offer you the possibility to make a room without having problems with take over
then is not admins/ircop fault.

I suggest you to learn more about undernet reading:
http://www.undernet.org/help.php
http://cservice.undernet.org/
http://www.undernet.org/services.php


do you want a answer for kids?
then:
So, the person decides to attack the server instead to get his/her channel back.

Answer:
the server goes down you have the channel BUT........i was affected with that on my channel.Then i try to find out the person and i will decide to make war with him for his stupidity.
What is the result?
did we lost hours and hours both of us for nothing? YES!
did we affect more ppl with our studidity? YES!
did we lost time from a discution with our friends online? YES!

that was answer for kids.cause only kids make take over/flood/abuse.
So keep fun with open mind.


In Undernet With Trust

P.S.i am not IRCop.Nothing personnaly with you and sorry if was offensive my post but i cannot understand the abuse(all kinds of them).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:12 am
Posts: 760
Location: Romania
As carlos said an ircop is there to make sure the clients that connect to the server he has an O:line on, has a stable and fast connection. They are on the network to see when a server splits, why, fix the problem and most important connect it back to the hub.

Also they are there to protect his server from any kind of abuse, or policy brake stated in the server`s motd.

Only if they want, and if they have time, they will help users with modes. I`ve stated in many many posts, i managed alot of unregistered channels, and registered 3 so far and i haven`t lost op not even once. Why? Because in my experience i have learned methods not to lose op and be in the embarasing situation of asking someone to correct my stupidity.

That why ircu coders are working on this new version that is supposed to prevent take-overs be adding op-levels and some new channel and user modes. Yes, it`s true they figured out a solution for user stupidity, how cool is that huh?

And i can tell you this, if you were an ircop, you`d forget all that you stated above and noone would reach to you. Yes, you wouln`t give a rat`s A$$ about the other users. Why am i saying that?! ermmmm maybe because wishing to be an ircop is a sign that you are only looking after power and priviledges.

Now returning to my moderator status, i`d like to ask you to stop opening threads about ircops that are mostly useless because such matters have been discussed over and over again. Use theSearch function. And second of all stop posting channel names, that channel is not part of any undernet project or committee and it`s name should appear on the forum. No being part of any undernet committee or project might rang a bell as why you didn`t get the help you seeked! [/url]



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 Post subject: :|
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:51 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:04 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Heaven
THis problem whit Oper`s has 2 "answer`s" (2 faces) In a point of wiew The user`s are right and in another point of wiew the opers are right!!!



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:27 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:47 am
Posts: 564
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
MiLLeniuM, the problem there is, the user's do not know they are actually wrong, since they assume oper's are there to help them, which as previously shown before your post, is where they go wrong.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:55 pm
Posts: 19
If so many users expect opers to help them, why is there none doing exactly that? I believe it is much overdue for Undernet (looking only at it's sheer size as a network) to have at least a few ircops whose primary duty is to help.

It is annoying to wait weeks before (and if) a flooder/spammer/abuser is caught and maybe 'punished' in some way. In the meantime he can easily do "his thing" and destroy a few channels.

Instead of making polls on screen size, why don't you do one on this issue, for a change?


P.S. I don't think a moderator status gives anyone the slightest right to be rude with others.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:18 pm
Posts: 95
Location: Bucharest/Romania
It is good without pointing to anyone to teach newbies which are oper`s duties.
Since they are new in the network or old but never faced situations when they would need an ircop and they heard opers provide modes, of course they will understand this is opers job..
It is a matter of communication, so that each and everyone to be informed not to op unknown or wrong kind of persons while their channel has no X. A good ideea would be that this advice to be more mentioned in documents so that everyone gets it well.
There is no one to be blamed here since newbies judge based on their ignorance (as in a lack of knowledge about the oper`s duty) and they are judged back for mistaking based on same criteria..

Bests,

Lu



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:54 pm 
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artzy wrote:
P.S. I don't think a moderator status gives anyone the slightest right to be rude with others.


Rude but honest, the same thing with opers is applied with moderators too. We have our own life and we can`t spend all our time on the forum explaining to each registered user to use the search button. It`s not our fault users do not read the AUP when they register.

Regards,
sirAndrew
Official Human



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:12 am 

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:44 am
Posts: 76
Quote:
It is annoying to wait weeks before (and if) a flooder/spammer/abuser is caught and maybe 'punished' in some way. In the meantime he can easily do "his thing" and destroy a few channels.


there are ways to prevent this. a good channel owner knows how to keep troublemakers out. correct use of channel modes and skilled operators with irc knowledge insure a safe channel. use protection scripts/bots, keep the users logged, maintain channel surveilance and stay out of trouble and everything should work fine :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:52 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:55 pm
Posts: 19
Quote:
There is no one to be blamed here since newbies judge based on their ignorance (as in a lack of knowledge about the oper`s duty) and they are judged back for mistaking based on same criteria..

I think this kind of puts just everybody in the same pot. Which is not quite correct. On the other hand, I agree that communication and much more information would help on this problem, but that's not what I am discussing.

Quote:
Rude but honest (...)

Should the latter excuse the former? I don't think so. Yes you do have an own life and you certainly have the right to that, but then again why are you here? Whatever is worth doing at all is worth doing well. Why not "polite and..", instead of "rude but..."? :)

Quote:
there are ways to prevent this. a good channel owner knows how to keep troublemakers out. correct use of channel modes and skilled operators with irc knowledge insure a safe channel. use protection scripts/bots, keep the users logged, maintain channel surveilance and stay out of trouble and everything should work fine

Yes, in many cases. On the whole however, I am sorry, but I cannot agree with this. And there are at least two good reasons for that. Firstly, Undernet has about 100 to 120 thousand users and 41-43 thousand channels at any moment. You cannot by any means expect for about one third of them to be "good channel owners". Besides, the channel owner is not everytime present (as he also has a personal life), and so on. I think it would surprize you, how many people on IRC don't actually know 90% of what they can or can't do. Just try to ask a few if they did ever open the help file of their client software or the one on the Cservice website including all X commands.

Secondly, you cannot really compare the distructive power of a rancourous flooder (who in many cases is a shell provider) and the options given by the software (client, script, X and everything else) that can be used by an experienced and skilled user to protect his channel and/or himself. And what about the not so experienced user?

Many times even IRCops have trouble stopping these people. And keeping them out of the network would be an incredible race between banning IPs and finding new ones. In other words: to fight windmills. So that's why I think a few dedicated persons (who unfortunately are really hard to find) should be IRCops helping out users, to tip the balance a bit in favor of the simple, unknowing user.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:51 pm 

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:44 am
Posts: 76
Quote:
Yes, in many cases. On the whole however, I am sorry, but I cannot agree with this. And there are at least two good reasons for that. Firstly, Undernet has about 100 to 120 thousand users and 41-43 thousand channels at any moment. You cannot by any means expect for about one third of them to be "good channel owners". Besides, the channel owner is not everytime present (as he also has a personal life), and so on. I think it would surprize you, how many people on IRC don't actually know 90% of what they can or can't do. Just try to ask a few if they did ever open the help file of their client software or the one on the Cservice website including all X commands.


i dont mean to be rude, but if they dont know their operator abilites and how to maintain the channel, they dont deserve operator satute.

Quote:
Secondly, you cannot really compare the distructive power of a rancourous flooder (who in many cases is a shell provider) and the options given by the software (client, script, X and everything else) that can be used by an experienced and skilled user to protect his channel and/or himself. And what about the not so experienced user?


wrong. i once had a flooder who brought more than 400 drones to my channel but my script set protective modes the moment they started coming and no flood was ever made. as i said before, there are many ways to prevent channel flooding and get rid of drones. First thing you should do is set modes +m and +i which will stop bots from flooding and entering the channel. You should have a script to do that because most floods take you by surprise. The next thing you can do, now that your channel is secure is find a way to evacuate the bots. You should have the 'show user addresses' option enabled in your irc client to help you with that. In many cases, bots have something in common in their address either in nicks, idents or hostmasks. setting a few wider class bans would be more effective than banning each bot individually. however if there are too many bans, you can try setting mode +r for a while and instruct your members to log in to join the channel since most drones are not logged.

Quote:
Many times even IRCops have trouble stopping these people. And keeping them out of the network would be an incredible race between banning IPs and finding new ones. In other words: to fight windmills. So that's why I think a few dedicated persons (who unfortunately are really hard to find) should be IRCops helping out users, to tip the balance a bit in favor of the simple, unknowing user.


i agree with you that there should be more opers to help people with these matters but my point is that you must first try channel protection and scripts which are not as weak as you think and only if the flooder is persistent or you cant face the situation you should seek ircop assistance.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:39 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:55 pm
Posts: 19
Quote:
i once had a flooder who brought more than 400 drones to my channel but my script set protective modes the moment they started coming and no flood was ever made.

Well, congratulations! How many users (I mean real people) on Undernet do you think, could do the same? Why don't you paste your second paragraph above into a few channels, or randomly invite people to read this thread and tell you if they understood it fully?

Problem is that persons knowledge about IRC is very different. But if they abide by some rules they all have the right to chat peacefully. It is a quite confortable position to say "who doesn't know his operator abilities, does not deserve to be an op". But who do you think you are to judge who "deserves" to be an op or not?

Skilled and experienced users are the ones who can keep themselves and their channel out of trouble and most probably won't even go with such problems to ircops. All the others (not necessarily newbies) are to some extent (maybe less, maybe more) at the mercy of attackers (who mainly do that because "they can" or "for fun" or "because they are so lame") on one hand, and ircops on the other. These are the people who are going to opers with their "wining". This can absolutely be the case in which "they can't face the situation" as you say, but they also get no assistance. And as it seems, there is always a good enough reason for that.

All in all, the difference between users skills is where the problem begins. Users have the same rights but not the same knowledge. Under these circumstances, I cannot agree that the option to give more and more powers in the users hands to defend themselves is the best and only option to be chosen. It is already hard enough to know every "little bittle" of this evergrowing defence mechanism. There should be a few people (don't call them ircops or opers if it's not convenient - name them as you like) who have the powers and the will to directly and swiftly help users who really need it. That's all.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:06 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:55 pm
Posts: 8
sirAndrew wrote:
Also they are there to protect his server from any kind of abuse, or policy brake stated in the server`s motd.


I know I joined the discussion a bit late but I wanted to clear out a question I have. Basing on what sirAndrew said, an IRCop's main job is also protect his server from abuse, right? Do we, ordinary users, can report abuse to an IRCop directly or should we always use the abuse@undernet.org addy?

Thanks!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:44 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:16 pm
Posts: 34
Location: Romania
i am admin on one channel so after too many attacks i prefer the WRONG solution +r.

1st what means many attacks: we talk about 1500 infected mashines(drone runner) joining and sending msg to all channel.

2nd why i say WRONG solution: cause from 300 users now i have just 45.

I read the solutions from Keops and i can say that are good in case of proxies(cause e bot working) NOT with drones(infected mashines.)

What i mean drone or infected mashines? many kinds of botnet like:zdbot,sdbot etc

After the "bug" repair of ban limit on X the ban limit is on 300.That means we have limited posibilities to protect our channels.

So i have to tell now that the person who control the drone run mashine has quit undernet.The infected mashines keep joining and spamming.Doesnt mean that the mashines was cleaned.That is obviously cause all of this lamers read somewhere howto infect someone remotely (via web site) but doesnt know how to cleaned remotely the infected mashines.

Also i proved someone of undernet ppl that the proxy scanner working but not so good as we want.I connect different ips (socks5) just like that.
I dont tell the tool in public(undernet person knows).

So what is the solution?To Call IRCop? This IRCop to be "true" op? Obviously NO. Even and with 2000 g-lines the problem will not be solved cause infected mashines connected with new ip.So what is the solution?

Lets see what was the problems on undernet :

1.drones,spams
2.take overs to unregister channels
3.flood/attacks

Before a few weeks the chanfix was enabled so the problem with take overs was solved (greatings to coders)

we have the other 2 problems.Also coders have to solved.What is my propose?

1st Lets be enabled the +d,+D chanmode.
2nd on connect a notice line to announce ppl a site or channels for help to register.(for the newbies).
3. advanced proxy scanner(socks 4,5) with http testing if is possible or conrtrol ip via openrbl or any other sites.

the 1st solution requiere update to all servers (same ircd version for all)

the 2nd propose i thing that is easy but we have to thing how to make more simple the register procedure (lets think 2 level register,one for the simple user and one for the user who want to make a room or to have access somewhere).

So NOT the opers must be true as initialy say that post but the solutions must be true and stable.

In Undernet With Trust.


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