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 Post subject: Racism and undernet (2)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:27 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:55 pm
Posts: 19
I have decided to repeat this post in this subforum as a continuation of Racism and Undernet, as here xplora cannot delete it, like he did 2 times so far. Here is the post:
Quote:
You have really crossed the line. But you will also have to ban me if you don't want to see my post.

Here is my original post that was deleted:

Quote:
I am sorry, but your answer is not quite good enough. I never said you should purge those channels. A newly inacted rule cannot produce its effects retroactively. Instead I said you should have never registered them. And I asked why you did at first place. But honestly, your answer is pathetic. How can you know they won't abuse undernet, before registration? How can you know a channel is meant for abuse?

This discussion was not about abuse, nor some rights issues. It was about how unfair your policy is. And my guess is that you have absolutely no idea what you should answer. Therefore it is probably best to lock this topic, too, because that's your idea of the freedom of speech: if you run out of arguments, you lock out everybody.


P.S. I would like to take this opportunity (if my post is not going to be removed) to refer everyone who might be reading it to the last paragraph of my first post from this thread.


To see a proof for it, goto http://www.geocities.com/artzy122/post.jpg.

And here you have the proof that this one existed: http://www.geocities.com/artzy122/postdel1.jpg

In addition I would like to ask for my post not to be deleted. I have not offended anybody, I said my opinion, and if Undernet and its officials believe in freedom of speech, as they say, then somebody should explain xplora that he has no valid reason to delete my post and should leave it there. This here is the Undernet Forum. It's not a channel and no principles regarding channel management should apply. What he has done is an abuse, which is normally severely punished on IRC. To be a moderator means to be a good manager and abide by the rules you have set up, to participate in and to guide discussions. It does not mean to be a tyrant or to close discussions if you have no more arguments, or to delete posts that may not be confortable for you. If you don't respect your own rules, why do you expect other people should?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:10 pm 
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I must disagree with you artzy. The first topic "Racism and Undernet" was closed, so what is the point of opening part 2 ? If somebody is abusing here, that's you. You are mass opening the same topic, even if it was deleted (two times) by a moderator. Besides that you started opening the same thread in other sections too. What's the point of those print screens, you did that because you knew that they will be deleted ? And, why you mentioned "if my post is not going to be removed" in the post ? The answer is obvious: you already knew that it will be removed. It is true that the forum is not a channel, but if you don't know, there is a Forum AUP and we (the moderators) must enforce it. Think about who's really abusing.


Best Regards,
Mit.



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:17 pm 

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I didn't know if it would be removed. That was a good guess based on the fact that I know how xplora reacts to criticism.

On the other hand, it is also highly probable that you haven't even read that "first" topic. If you did, you probably would have understood why I had to open a new one. It's because it was closed unjustly. If he believes so much in freedom of speech, why did he close it? For my part, I know your Forum AUP, too, and I cannot see how I violated it. At least not compared to him.

I suggest you read that topic and decide for yourself based on facts known, not just assumed. And by the way, if you are there please read that sticky note at the top. The following is a quote of it:
xplora @ Sat Jul 31, 2004 11:57 pm wrote:
Again, this is a forum, therefore this is a place where things can be publically discussed.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:22 pm 
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This atitude will only get you banned on the forum...what`s the use of this thread?! Getting it closed?



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:09 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:55 pm
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You cannot give a good answer on a fairly simple question. You close topics when you cannot argue anymore. You delete posts that make you unconfortable, although there was no offensive language whatsoever in them. You don't respect the rules that you have created and enforced on others.

And you say that I have an attitude problem? Well, look in a mirror.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:34 am 
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artzy the original topic was closed because you refused to accept the answers given. The answers are there, you just refuse to read them. the 2 posts were deleted for the same reason.... The point is, we clearly have a difference of opinion and the conversation as far as CService and the Channel service help section of the forums goes, is closed.

You are welcome to re-open it elsewhere, but do not expect anymore responses from CService about it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:00 pm 

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Oh, I see. So that's how it works! If I don't accept your answers, you may close the topic. And then, let me guess: the meaning of a discussion would be to accept eachother's answers. Well, then I don't think I would except too much that you explain me, like for a 5 year old, how this is not incompatible with the freedom of speech and "things being publically discussed", because as it seems, I really cannot understand it.

I don't think these points of view are based on faith and therefore they would give grounds to an unsolvable and everlasting discussion. And even if it would be so, provided that the rules of discussing things are abided by, I would prefer to keep that discussion going instead of closing it, as it might yield also positive results after a while.

Regarding your answer: it's not like I blindly would not (be able to) accept it. I weigh my words. And I think a lot about yours. And I am telling you that you are wrong. As I already told Gestapo, the nature of racism is not a matter of opinion. To be a christian or a lutheran, to be hetero- or homosexual is not comparable to being a racist or not being one.

These kind of channels should not be registered. That is my opinion. I believe I have supported it with enough correct arguments.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:23 am 
There are a lot of channels on Undernet that promote racism. You can't stop that, some channels that do trades, carding, sexual related, are also registered. Remember IRC is unmoderated.
You cannot expect all people habbits to be the same, talk nice and even (joke) drink Cola, like you do - if meant that way

If you own a channel, and someone abuses you, you simply ban that person, or the domain. Simple as that.
I personally trust Cservice of doing its best to keep them at minimal.
But if you look in other ways, you can form #racismchannel without anyone knowing about it.
Try keeping that in mind. You will not find another network that keeps this at zero level, so simply ignore it or fight personal wars with the people that promote it. There are legal ways of punishing a racist. This forum is not for that.


  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:23 am 
There are a lot of channels on Undernet that promote racism. You can't stop that, some channels that do trades, carding, sexual related, are also registered. Remember IRC is unmoderated.
You cannot expect all people habbits to be the same, talk nice and even (joke) drink Cola, like you do - if meant that way

If you own a channel, and someone abuses you, you simply ban that person, or the domain. Simple as that.
I personally trust Cservice of doing its best to keep them at minimal.
But if you look in other ways, you can form #racismchannel without anyone knowing about it.
Try keeping that in mind. You will not find another network that keeps this at zero level, so simply ignore it or fight personal wars with the people that promote it. There are legal ways of punishing a racist. This forum is not for that.


  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:24 am 
There are a lot of channels on Undernet that promote racism. You can't stop that, some channels that do trades, carding, sexual related, are also registered. Remember IRC is unmoderated.
You cannot expect all people habbits to be the same, talk nice and even (joke) drink Cola, like you do - if meant that way

If you own a channel, and someone abuses you, you simply ban that person, or the domain. Simple as that.
I personally trust Cservice of doing its best to keep them at minimal.
But if you look in other ways, you can form #racismchannel without anyone knowing about it.
Try keeping that in mind. You will not find another network that keeps this at zero level, so simply ignore it or fight personal wars with the people that promote it. There are legal ways of punishing a racist. This forum is not for that.


  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:25 am 
Sorry about that, a DEBUG error that I refreshed


  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:30 am 
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Another angle on why I closed the previous topic, there are only so many ways the same answer/opinion/view can be stated, I closed that topic because they had all been stated on both sides, and there was no point to letting the conversation devolve into an arguement since it was clear that is where the conversation was headed.

artzy wrote:
Regarding your answer: it's not like I blindly would not (be able to) accept it. I weigh my words. And I think a lot about yours. And I am telling you that you are wrong. As I already told Gestapo, the nature of racism is not a matter of opinion. To be a christian or a lutheran, to be hetero- or homosexual is not comparable to being a racist or not being one.

These kind of channels should not be registered. That is my opinion. I believe I have supported it with enough correct arguments.


and that is exactly my point in the closed topic. Racism/sexism/etc are about enforcing a persons views and opinions on others. Every one of those ism's is merely refering to a specific nature of the view/opinion. Freedom of speech is not just about the right to express your view/opinion, it is also about the right not to have another's view/opinion "forced" upon us.

You have yet to provide any evidence that racism is not a matter of opinion, whereas I have one for you right now... the simplist version of racism is person #1 (lets call him Fred), doesnt like person #2 (lets call him Jim) because Fred has a Black skin colour, and Jim has a White skin colour. This is still an opinion because Fred only thinks all White skin coloured people are bad, because once in his past a kid with White coloured skin tripped over Fred, and Fred thought he was being kicked.

If it is an ism, it always comes down to an opinion, often the worst forms of it, are based on really really bad opinions, and the worst ones are hard to change. Most bad ism's are based on an opinion formed during a usually harmless incedent that is mis-interpreted, or another bad opinion passed on (the parrot syndrome, where we decide to repeat someone elses opinion and make it our own).

artzy wrote:
To be a christian or a lutheran, to be hetero- or homosexual is not comparable to being a racist or not being one.


"To be ..." implies a choice, we make choices based on our own opinions, in the end, for all of those ism's, someone has made a choice based on an opinion, and when they make those choices, they are choosing to support those opinions.

This is not a CService response, this is a personal response.

- xplora


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:40 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:55 pm
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My dear SilverSword, you totally missed the point, but that's fine. It is hard to change mentalities, especially if the level of intelligence is below average. But while the former can be changed, the latter... well, not so much.

Quote:
You have yet to provide any evidence that racism is not a matter of opinion

Do I? - How about cathing up on a little history? The American Revolution and World War II might be good reference. And how about the United States Declaration of Indepence or the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? How about the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination? In this list you shall find all countries which have ratified it so far. I believe yours is among them.

About your generalisations.. they don't really work for you. "To be.." implies a choice? Well, sometimes it does. Sometimes it does to some extent. And many other times it simply does not. For example I fail to see how being tall or short, intelligent or not, ugly or beautiful depends on "choice". Or on choice only.

You know, not everything is a matter of opinion. The freedom of conscience and thought might be limitless, but the freedom of speech is not.

Access to Undernet is not a birthright. Therefore, this discussion is nowhere close being about free speech. Accessing Undernet is merely a possibility to receive certain services, granted subject to conditions. Either one accepts them and may stay, or not. The point is that those conditions are not equitable. That's what I was saying and that's where I stand now.

But then again it's hard to change mentalities...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:20 pm 
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artzy wrote:
Quote:
You have yet to provide any evidence that racism is not a matter of opinion

Do I? - How about cathing up on a little history? The American Revolution and World War II might be good reference. And how about the United States Declaration of Indepence or the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? How about the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination? In this list you shall find all countries which have ratified it so far. I believe yours is among them.


I find it interesting that you choose to use as evidence items that only prove my point and not yours. They all prove that racism is a matter of opinion, and they themselves are opinions made by groups of people.

- xplora


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:55 pm
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I was referring to the validity and righteousness of such opinions. And not to the opinion itself, to which, certainly, anybody is entitled.

Again I say, you might think whatever you want, you are entitled to that too. But you may not say whatever you wish. Freedom of speech can go only so far as not to offend others. And as long as you deny registering channels involved in child pornography or the trading of copywritten materials, accepting those supporting and encouraging racism is a good proof for the lack of equity in your policy and for your carelessness.

All in all, I still don't think you should allow the registration of such channels, but it's your network and thus you can do as you wish.


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