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 Post subject: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:30 am 

Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:26 am
Posts: 13
I've read this forum a little because I'm looking for a place to start a channel and I wonder why none of the admins care about Undernet.

For example, nick registration seems down since November. It can't take 9 months to fix that. It should be trivial to write a page with captchas where users can register.

Or that huge thread about the Tor ban. The request sounds very reasonable yet Undernet hasn't fixed it for a year. That mentioned cloaking should be easy to implement.

It also looks like none of the Undernet server admins are active in this forum. So what's the point of having it when it's not used to really solve problems? Only to tell users to send a mail to abuse?

There are a few threads where users mention bot channels and nothing seems to be done there either.

All this makes it look like the Undernet owners don't want to make the network better. With other websites or chats you see how owners listen to requests and actually fix problems quickly. But there are only deaf ears here.

All this won't really attract new users.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:26 pm 
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Wondering wrote:
I've read this forum a little because I'm looking for a place to start a channel and I wonder why none of the admins care about Undernet.

For example, nick registration seems down since November. It can't take 9 months to fix that. It should be trivial to write a page with captchas where users can register.

Undernet has never had nickname registration, and has no intention to introduce nickname registration. As for username registration, I believe they are working on fixing the current issues.

Wondering wrote:
Or that huge thread about the Tor ban. The request sounds very reasonable yet Undernet hasn't fixed it for a year. That mentioned cloaking should be easy to implement.

That thread has been answered within the thread many times, we can't help people that refuse to accept the answer given.

Wondering wrote:
It also looks like none of the Undernet server admins are active in this forum. So what's the point of having it when it's not used to really solve problems? Only to tell users to send a mail to abuse?

There are a few threads where users mention bot channels and nothing seems to be done there either.

The forums and main website are provided by the User Committee, it is there responsibility to bring issues to the attention of the admins. As I am not a part of the User Committee, I can't comment on their effectiveness. However actual issues should be emailed accordingly.

Wondering wrote:
All this makes it look like the Undernet owners don't want to make the network better. With other websites or chats you see how owners listen to requests and actually fix problems quickly. But there are only deaf ears here.

All this won't really attract new users.

Everybody wants problems solved their way, all I can tell you is the Undernet Admins have preferred ways to solve the problems, and it differ's greatly from other IRC networks.



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 Post subject: Re: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:58 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:26 am
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xplora wrote:
Undernet has never had nickname registration, and has no intention to introduce nickname registration. As for username registration, I believe they are working on fixing the current issues.

Ok, let's call it username registration then. I'm not a big IRC user so I wasn't aware that there is much of a difference between usernames and nicknames; for me, user and nick refer to the same person. Anyway, it still shouldn't take over 9 months to fix a simple site for registering those. Even I with my limited knowledge of programming could do that in a few days I guess. I assume that the guys responsible know a lot more and could do it way faster, perhaps even in hours. That huge delay just makes it look like nobody cares; there isn't even an explanation for why it takes so long. And while browsing the website, I noticed that http://www.cservice.undernet.org is down too. IRC may be about instant messaging, but it still would be nice to have status updates on the main website. Even the news site hasn't been updated since Dec 10.

xplora wrote:
That thread has been answered within the thread many times, we can't help people that refuse to accept the answer given.

I read the thread a second time and invested some time to inform myself about background details I didn't understand at first and the cloak sounds even more reasonable now. Just because Undernet decided at some point in the past to block it doesn't mean it's set in stone. A no doesn't have to be a no forever when an good alternative is presented.

xplora wrote:
The forums and main website are provided by the User Committee, it is there responsibility to bring issues to the attention of the admins. As I am not a part of the User Committee, I can't comment on their effectiveness. However actual issues should be emailed accordingly.

It would be nice to get some response back from those admins. Right now, nobody knows what topics are brought to the attention of the admins. I imagine it's frustrating for a lot of the users who posted here to get some problems solved that they can't get official respones from the higher-ups who run the network.

xplora wrote:
Everybody wants problems solved their way, all I can tell you is the Undernet Admins have preferred ways to solve the problems, and it differ's greatly from other IRC networks.

Well true, it looks like Undernet's way really differs greatly. But I think it's different in a bad way.


I also thought about checking the network myself; perhaps the posts I read here made it look worse than it really is. After all, it's better to try something than to rely on second hand opinions. When I tried to connect, I instantly got g-lined. Mind you, I had never before connected to Undernet. I know I can send a mail to the support, but I considered it funny in an odd way.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:54 am 
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I don't want to sound like I'm defending the choices of the network admins, so my apologies up front if this comes across that way.

Your first paragraph immediately above tries to make 2 different/distinct points, but it's actually one single point. To register a username you MUST go to cservice.undernet.org/live/ (and if cservice.undernet.org is down, you can't reach the live folder on that server.) I would think you'd have seen some discussion on this forum regarding the issue (constant DDoS, dynamic firewall, works for some but not others, possibly other excuses, etc.)

Your third paragraph implies the admins should be more publicly available on this forum. That's completely up to them. I agree that sometimes it sucks that they aren't, but just about every meaningful "get some problems solved" post HAS been answered by someone that knows what they're talking about. Not being happy with the response is, on its own, not reason enough for escalation to the admins themselves. Undernet is not, nor ever has been, a democracy. Try to remember that.

Finally, I feel in your last paragraph you have made some huge assumptions. Did you try a different server? Did you ever try to reconnect? Did you investigate the G-line at all? Maybe someone from your ISP created havoc and evaded other K-Lines and G-Lines forcing a rather wide ban. Maybe a simple reconnect would have resulted in you getting onto the server successfully. I get G-lined on connection every once in a while, but immediately connect on the next attempt seconds later.

MrEen

P.S. Contrary to popular opinion, Undernet is still alive (over 45000 connections as I type this.) I will grant the number of users is not nearly as large as it once was, but the drone-reduction attempts seem to have worked as far as I can tell, and I like the network more now than when it had over 100000 connections. I think there might be more attempts at spam on this forum (which is constantly thwarted) than there is on the network itself these days.



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 Post subject: Re: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:26 am
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MrEen wrote:
Your first paragraph immediately above tries to make 2 different/distinct points, but it's actually one single point. To register a username you MUST go to cservice.undernet.org/live/ (and if cservice.undernet.org is down, you can't reach the live folder on that server.) I would think you'd have seen some discussion on this forum regarding the issue (constant DDoS, dynamic firewall, works for some but not others, possibly other excuses, etc.)

I went to that site again today to take a look, and it still won't load for me. And yes, I do have a different IP than last time. I also checked with isup.me and they say it's down too. Since I never had the chance to actually see what's on that page, the following is only an assumption: I guess users type in the username they want and an email to register it, and someone abuses that. For other sites it works to simply add something like recaptcha; they don't stay down for 9 months.

MrEen wrote:
Your third paragraph implies the admins should be more publicly available on this forum. That's completely up to them. I agree that sometimes it sucks that they aren't, but just about every meaningful "get some problems solved" post HAS been answered by someone that knows what they're talking about. Not being happy with the response is, on its own, not reason enough for escalation to the admins themselves. Undernet is not, nor ever has been, a democracy. Try to remember that.

I don't want this to sound snarky, but most replies seem to be "send an email to abuse". If you read some of the various threads about botnets it looks like nothing is done at all; and I guess at least one did send an email to let those in power know that channels are abused for illegal activity; I even read replies like "Undernet is unmoderated" or "why care at all, they just start another channel?". The forum staff can only give replies which fit into the current set of rules; but only the irc admins can change those rules. But if they never show up here and take part in those discussions (like about botnets, nickserv or Tor), then nothing will ever change, even if the suggestions are great.

MrEen wrote:
Finally, I feel in your last paragraph you have made some huge assumptions. Did you try a different server? Did you ever try to reconnect? Did you investigate the G-line at all? Maybe someone from your ISP created havoc and evaded other K-Lines and G-Lines forcing a rather wide ban. Maybe a simple reconnect would have resulted in you getting onto the server successfully. I get G-lined on connection every once in a while, but immediately connect on the next attempt seconds later.

I know, I could have put a little more research into it. But I just thought it was funny that my first attempt to connect after starting this discussion ended in a g-line. And if I'm honest, I didn't really feel like figuring out the reason because I'm sure that it was not my fault to get g-lined.

I'm really thankful for your reply. And yes, it is entirely up to the the irc admins to decide how to run the network. But refusing any progress or development will hurt the network. And I'm not talking about adding an option to the irc server which maybe 0.001% of the users use; I'm talking about changes/progress which the entire userbase and outsiders can see. Undernet could make a big announcement saying "We have a nickserv now, register your nickname" or "To support free speech, we're allowing Tor". Those would be news that attract users.

I've seen some smaller companies go into bankruptcy because their boss said "We've always been doing our business like this. It always worked. We don't need to change". Sometimes you need to jump over your own shadow.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:14 pm 
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<rant>
First for CService's site status see #CService, or at least it's topic (/topic #cservice) which can be viewed without having to be on the channel. As for why it's been down so long, please only comment further with possible solutions when the problem of how much it costs to handle multi-Gig DoS attacks with no money to pay for the traffic has been solved.

Back in the early days of ADSL, I received my own DoS attack (going back about 8-10 years), back then data was still charged per Meg, so you can imagine my shock of a possible $NZ9000 bill when I discovered one morning my connection had been under attack all night. Thankfully I had a nice telco, that after explaining what had happened, they were kind enough to drop the bill down to $NZ300. So please understand how it really !@$%@#$%^# me off when people assume it is really easy to fix our website problems.

As for "send an email to abuse", like any group, organisation, company, Undernet does have established protocols on how to handle things like botnets, and I'm sorry to say but the forums are not part of those protocols, after all, if a house was going up in flames, would calling 111 (in NZ, 911 in the US, other variations for other countries, check your yellow pages) help, or would making a post on the fire departments forums do a better job? The scenario is the same, as obviously the phone call will be faster, because by the time the forum post was submitted, the house would probably have burnt down. Undernet requires emails as the addresses directed to are obviously set up to forward to the right people to handle those problems.

I have been using Undernet for 16-17 years, and it still amazes me that people still do not take the time to think about what they are saying.

</rant added for emphasis, this post is not targeted at the original poster>


Last edited by xplora on Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:12 am 

Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:26 am
Posts: 13
Excuse me, but I did think about what I said.

xplora wrote:
First for CService's site status see #CService, or at least it's topic (/topic #cservice) which can be viewed without having to be on the channel.

Well that would be fun to do, but, as you can read above, when I tried to connect, Undernet instantly banned me.

The network does have problems and that's obvious from looking around here in the forum so it's only normal that they are brought up.

I flat out admit that I don't have the knowledge to handle a DoS. But that's what I expect from those running the network. And if money is the main problem then you could always ask for donations. Or offer nick registrations for a little fee. I'm sure many users would throw a few dollars in as long as they know that this money goes to making the network better. Perhaps moving the site to Google's Page Speed service would help.

Again, excuse me for taking my time and wanting to talk over those things. I brought this up because for someone like me who never used Undernet before, those are problems that made me raise an eyebrow. Other nets don't seem to have problems with DoS, nick registrations, Tor or blocking bad channels. That's why I wondered and decided to talk about it here.

Forums are a great place to discuss things and that's why the admins should participate. But I'm aware that they probably consider them inferior compared to discussing things in irc though. If nobody wants to talk about progress, maybe Undernet should shut down its website completely and rely on its old userbase instead of adapting a little to attract new users.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:48 am 
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Good post, Wondering.

I have been running a help channel on Undernet since the mid-90s and am an op in several other major help channels as well.

It has gotten downright embarrassing to have to tell people that they cannot register a username or a channel on Undernet, and have not been able to since last year. After all this time, I just tell them that one cannot register a username or channel on Undernet. Because that is the truth. (Even though the topic in #CService dating back to November, 2010, states that the website will be available, "soon.")

I simply cannot believe that a workable solution to this has not been found in all these months. (I even suggested a few.)

I have to believe those who can make the needed changes have simply chosen not to.

Apathy. I think that is what it is about.

Just my opinion.

~Eenie



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 Post subject: Re: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:59 am 
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Just tonight, got a message on Undernet from an IRC op referring to the above post: saying this:

Quote:
[03:27] <redacted-nick> What on earth do you think that will achieve? And how in the hell do you think that is appropriate for a forum moderator?
[03:28] <redacted-nick> Making public assumptions about CService is not something you are qualified to do -- inciting protest is not something you should be doing.
[03:28] <redacted-nick> Please remove it.


This message went on and on, and I asked the IRC op to post here, not in a message to me, but he would not.

Seems I hit a nerve.

*shrug*
~Eenie



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 Post subject: Re: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:38 pm 

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Thank you Eenie for your posts. It looks like not everybody is in apathy.

It's sad to see that others want this discussion to end. When I read the "inciting protest" line, the first thing that popped into my mind was: "wait, are we in China or Soviet Russia?". If he doesn't want "public assumptions", then maybe he should make a public statement. Otherwise, people like you and me will have to assume. And I will continue to do so. What can he do? Ban me from irc where I got insta-glined?

This is exactly what I am talking about: ignorance and suppression. This attitude will NEVER help Undernet; in fact, it will make it worse. It's bad enough that irc has a hard competition from those "Web 2.0" services. Making it even less interesting and harder for users is contra-productive. No new users will join, and the old users trickle away. Just look at Facebook, Twitter, Google+ and whatever today's newest social network is. Are they getting a dos? Probably, but nobody notices. Can you register a nick/user? Yes, you pretty much have to. Can you use Tor? Haven't heard about it being blocked. Are there bot channels? Sometimes you read about those being on Twitter, but they get shut down quickly. And I never got blocked when I visited one of those websites.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:32 am 
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Reports of Undernet's death are greatly exaggerated.
https://cservice.undernet.org/live/


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 Post subject: Re: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:47 pm 
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Hodari wrote:
Reports of Undernet's death are greatly exaggerated.
https://cservice.undernet.org/live/


Congratulations!

Now, can you all do something about that pesky certificate problem, please? ;-)

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I hope people will stop leaving Undernet now that they can register usernames and channels again.

~Eenie



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 Post subject: Re: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:52 pm 
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yeah, just need to wait for the certificate to be approved which should be fairly soon. Until then that warning can be safely ignored in this case.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:57 pm 
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Hodari wrote:
yeah, just need to wait for the certificate to be approved which should be fairly soon. Until then that warning can be safely ignored in this case.

Good to know, thanks.

Maybe an announcement that the site is back in the CService section here might be appropriate?

The more people who know that our services are back up, the better, IMO.

~Eenie



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 Post subject: Re: Is Undernet dead?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:15 pm 
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Eenie wrote:
Maybe an announcement that the site is back in the CService section here might be appropriate?


done


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