It is currently Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:24 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]




 Page 1 of 3 [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Racism and undernet
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:20 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:55 am
Posts: 10
Hello,

My Nickname is CoIn and I am an operator of the channel #france under the "nawak" username.

A few weeks ago, i have banned a user from the chan because he kept on using the word "negro", which is against our channel's policy.

I must also add that I am Belgian (caucasian) and have a daughter with a rwandese (african) women. The user somehow learnt this and ever since says the following on the channel when I'm there:

<Nick Censored by me coin-> -FN-MNR--(*)/-(*)
<nick censored by me coin-> je suis venue dans la banlieue de marseille en solex et puis coin- c'est pire qu'un arabe, il a choisit une famille de négro, ca me fait donne envie de gerber. moi je me demanderais systematiquement pourquoi dieu m'a puni de la sorte pour avoir une famille de negro.<invisible`> c'est pour RIRE je te dis
<roch> coin: non mais laisse tomber hein, elle est completement cinglee et de totale mauvaise foi, on a deja pratique le bestiau :)
<Censored by me coin-> .....____@@@____
<censored> _____//____Ø__\\______
<censored> lo------IRClRochUBUl--------D
<censored> .`----(@)===========(@)--´ TOUS EN TAULE !!!
* X sets mode: +b *!*@81.214.141.91
* |o_o| was kicked by X ((kortizone) Spam/Open proxy)
<invisible`> roch ubu arrête connard
<censored> tant qu'a faire :)
-> *x* ban #france *!*@censored.by.coin- 8 200 vas te faire foutre
<KPRICORN^> ah vla..
* X sets mode: +b *!*@censored.by.coin-
* censored was kicked by X ((nawak) vas te faire foutre)
-X- Added ban *!*@censored by me coin- to #france at level 200


The user I'm talking about is called "censored" on this mail but his usual nick is "censored the debate is now general and not individual". His ip is an undernet account that you can see in the ban: *!*@censored for the debate is now general and not individual

Translation of the sentence he always says:
I came from the Marseille suburbs on a small motorcycle and CoIn- he's even worst than an arab, he chose a negro family, it make me wanna puke. Me, I would always ask myslef why God chose to punish me in such a way by giving me a negro family.

I would like to add that my daughter is one year old and doesn't even know what racism is. You will surely understand why I find this situation unbearable, especially when he says such things on the public window of a big IRC channel.

I can not ban him permanently, our ban list is too full for this. Here are my questions:

1. Is it normal that such a person has an undernet account, and is an operator on small chans registered on X?
2. Could this be a G-line reason?
3. If not, what else can I do not to have to read such things when I connect to IRC, intially to have a pleasant chat with people?

Thks for your feedback,

CoIn-


Last edited by coin on Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.


_________________
Onx
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:36 pm 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:51 pm
Posts: 594
Location: Europe
Hi coin,

This problem is more likely personal and related to that channel. Only you can solve it. If you don't want him to say those things and it's against the channel policy ban him (I see you already did that). If he's annoying you in private, you can /ignore him. So, I really don't see the problem. A G-line won't be issued with that reason. Even channels full of opers, admins, and privileged people on Undernet use the ban feature. That's what for it is done after all, to ban someone from a channel. I hope you got the answers to your questions.

Best Regards,
Mit.



_________________
Dimitar Tnokovski aka Mitko
Image
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:42 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:55 am
Posts: 10
Hey Mitko,

Thks for the answer. I also thought nothing else than a ban could be done, however I needed to ask.

Our bans don't last longer than 8 hours because we are a big channel and the ban list is always full. So by the time I see him on the chan he says the same thing again. I already have to struggle with racism irl, love my daughter, and just seing that sentence everyday before the ban slowly kills the pleasure I make of coming here and chatting with friends.

Anyway, true enough #kkk and #nazi avec their own X, so I wouldn't expect much from undernet to fight such negative and destroying attitude...



_________________
Onx
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:02 pm 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:51 pm
Posts: 594
Location: Europe
coin wrote:
I wouldn't expect much from undernet to fight such negative and destroying attitude...


That makes me comment this a little bit more. Well my question is, what do you expect to be done coin ? We face many different problems in real life too, there are racists in real life too but nobody can change their mind. That's their own attitude, free world no ? The only thing you can do is to avoid them, and to restrict them being in your house, and in the places where you have a privilegie to do so. The same applies to IRC, you can ban or ignore them, that's the privilegie. Some attitude makes some people happy and some people sad. So, hang out with people with an attitude that makes you happy, and avoid the others. Pretty simple, no ?

Anyway, what do you expect to be done from Undernet ? To gline that person ? And many many others ? They will change their IP, or use a proxy, or a bouncer. Then gline them again ? And again ? And again ? It will always be like that. Or maybe you expect the undernet staff to start chatting with every user (from those 1 million registered) and see who is a racist and who is not ? Eh come on. Or maybe you expect the username to be suspended ? The person can register another username, no ? You are an operator in that channel, isn't your responsibility to take care of such problems ? Undernet is giving a free service. You are reponsible for knowing or not knowing how to solve personal or channel wide problems where you have a privilegie to do so.

I hope you will understand.

Best Regards,
Mit.



_________________
Dimitar Tnokovski aka Mitko
Image
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:38 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:55 am
Posts: 10
Hi again Mitko,

Like I said in my previous mail, I understant the arguments you're using and fully understand that nothing can be done on my personal case. Even if there was a will to do so, it would not be technically possible.

However I don't think these are good reasons enough to give an X (meaning protection) to channels such as #kkk or #nazi.

We are not talking about ip address or whatever here, we are talking about racist channels who request X's protection. It would be very easy not to provide an x to those channels and let these people deal with the fact that their hatred ideology creates hatred against them. In my opinion, by putting an x on such channels, undernet clearly shows that it does not want to have ANYTHING to do with people who beleive that this world woud be better off without racism.

Sure racists exist in the world. Is this a good reason enough to accept it on undernet? Let me take an example: child rapers exist. Now if I create a channel called #children_rape_anthology , and request for X to be on it, will my request be granted?

I surely hope not. And it is using the same arguments that I say that X has nothing to do on #nazi. If it is there, it is only because Undernet staff don't consider racism as serious enough to be banned from this online world. For info, the existence of such channels and what is said in them is illegal in France, so please don't argue that rape is a crime and racism is not.

Remember: undernet is a virtual world. Like any virtual world, it looks like what it's conceptors want to make it look like. So, to me, "racists exist irl" is not a good enough reason to see X on #kkk.

Undernet is not mine. It's conceptor can make whatever he wants with it. But he should at least acknowledge his responsability on certain things going on there (not my personal case, again I'm talking about X being on racist chans such as #KKK and #nazi.

My opinion is that this is shocking on a network meant to make people from all over the world communicate. I'm sure that if you made a survey on this, I wouldn't be the only one thinking this.

Best regards and not aggressivity from me here, I'm just stating an opinion.

Coin



_________________
Onx
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:13 pm 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:51 pm
Posts: 594
Location: Europe
Hi again coin,

If you read the Channel Service AUP you will spot this paragraph:

Quote:
Channel Services (X) will not be provided for any channel involved in child pornography, the trading of warez or any copywritten material including mp3's and dvd's or the illegal trading of credit cards, passwords etc. We will no longer register any bot lending, shell or bnc (vhosts) channels. If we find these activities are predominant in your channel after registration, we will permanently remove X from the channel.

I don't see anything about racism/nazi channels. Anyway, I will let the cservice administrators to answer your question regarding those channels registered with X.


Best Regards,
Mit.



_________________
Dimitar Tnokovski aka Mitko
Image
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:25 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:55 am
Posts: 10
Hey Mitko,

Thx again for your prompt reply.

Like you say, racism doesn't figure in these terms, and that is exactly my point... why is that?

Thks for your attention, it does give me some hope... and I appreciate such constructive dialogues.

Best regards,

Coin



_________________
Onx
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:41 am 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 12:20 pm
Posts: 67
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Although I strongly believe that racism/antisemitism or any other form of intolerance are condamnable and should not be encouraged at any time, one must not forget the fundamental right of one's freedom of thought and belief. Undernet tries to guarantee this right even to those who's oppinions are contrary to the values of humanism.

When it comes to allowing questionable groups (such as the KKK or nazis/neo-nazis) to register their own places, the Undernet is working towards confirming such a right.

Discrimination can go both ways, and ultimately it is the people that can act against it. The central authority tries to provide everyone with equal chances. People are then free to accept or reject certain attitudes.

I also believe that it is not the rules that must be changed, but the people. Would we not be hypocritical to ban someone for expressing his own thoughts, when we believe in the freedom of speech? Sure, we don't like what he or she thinks, and we would rather have them shut up. But that's not the way. Dialogue has always been more productive, on a long term basis. The chances of you succeeding in changing his thoughts about racism are indeed, small. But banning someone from expressing his thoughts is not the way to follow.

I could try suggesting you to contact abuse[at]undernet[dot]org and telling them about this. Your only argument is that you're being harassed. The guy who's bothering you and your channel is ultimately practicing one of his rights, that the Undernet tries to guarantee. Harassing is, however, contrary to the AUP. Mind you, I can not guarantee a favourable decision, but you are free to try.

I hope I've made my point clear. This post is not meant to excuse those who participate in such offensive polemics. I do not support, nor encourage, any form of intolerance.



_________________
"Gods do not suffer pride in anyone but themselves." - Herodotus

jasee
http://forum.undernet.org/
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:02 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:55 am
Posts: 10
Hi Jasee,

Thanks for taking part to the debate.

I understand your point of view as it is a common one. There has always been some people defending censorship against racism and others defending freedom of expression.

My question regarding your point is: where is the limit between what is bearable and thus should not be censored, and what is unbearable. What makes child pornography or website password transmission unacceptable and makes racism acceptable? Furthermore, WHO fixes the criterias, WHO decides this?

My personal opinion is that censoring racists is not such a stupid way of fighting them. If it was, using the "N word" (like they say in court) would not be forbidden in USA, nore would racial hatred propaganda be forbidden in France and most European and Latin American countries.

Mind you that by letting KKK and Nazi have their channel, NO COMMUNICATION between racists and non racists is created. If you go on any of these chans and try to have a normal dialogue stating your non-racist point of view, you start by being insulted and end up being banned. Go ahead, make the test and you'll see.

All this to say that the ONLY common users of these chans are nazis and racists. By consequence, by letting these chans exist, you don't create communication but allow a FORUM enabling these racist people to regroup and stay in contact. In other words, you are providing these groups with ORGANIZATIONAL MEANS.

I would agree with you if some dialogue was initiated by their presence on undernet. But it's not the case.

Have a pleasant day,

Coin-



_________________
Onx
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:29 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 12:20 pm
Posts: 67
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Hi,

Indeed, the limit marking what is bearable and unbearable differs from society to society, and from a group to another.

The way I see it, distribution of copyrighted materials, of materials containing personal information, of child pornography and other such materials actually involves the existance of such materials, which implies the fact that such acts have been, or are being committed, and that is, in case of child pornography, a crime itself, whereas the distribution of copyrighted materials or personal information (including but not limited to website accounts, credit card information and such) become crimes through their very self distribution.

All means of intolerance (racism/xenophobia/homophobia/antisemitism, to name a few) are, in my oppinion, highly condemnable. However, one can not force another on how to think. As long as these means are kept to self, to his mind (where this can constitute the ideals of a group/society), but are not practiced, they are not condemnable by law as they would break the right of free speech and thought; such "ideals" are still morally and ethically incorrect. I ought to provide you with an example which would prove my point: the on-going campaigns against the so called "gay rights", which are promoted by some more conservative groups of our societies, including the Christian Democratic parties, the Church and other advocates. They protest against the allowence of one category of the society to have the same rights as the rest: marriage, addoption, etc. Their protests, although being questionable, are not condemnable. However, when such groups engage in violence for the sake of enforcing their "ideals", they are sanctioned accordingly.

Here's another, more conclusive example: although you're not allowed to use the N word publically, in the US, no one says you can't think it. Using the same word in a closed group would not trigger any consequences.

Unlike distribution of illegal materials, having imoral thoughts of all kinds, including being a racist/xenophobe/antisemitical in your own thought does not constitute a legally punishable crime, even though it remains an imoral act.

Trying to answer your other points, I'm sure that upon expressing such imoral thoughts in a public lounge, an individual would be banned, even on Undernet.

As for what I meant by trying to communicate with such groups and change their oppinions about such acts, I was trying to actually persue you in trying to talk to the one who's bothering you and your channel, and not necessarely to address a well established group, such as the KKK or the other (neo)nazi channels on Undernet, who are organized in such a channel for the precise purpose of ellaborating their ideas. I would not even bother trying to change their thoughts in their own lounge; they started that place precisely because they didn't want to be criticised.

Just my two cents.



_________________
"Gods do not suffer pride in anyone but themselves." - Herodotus

jasee
http://forum.undernet.org/
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:28 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:55 am
Posts: 10
I respect your point of view but keep mine jasee.

Listen, this is interesting. Following this thread, I am in the process of writing a petition on the presence of X on racist channels. I have created the #NoRacism channel to prepare this.

Surprise, after a while, a person called "shes" drops in the channel, starts swearing at us then floods the channel with the following copy paste:

<Shes> moi mon penis est dur la, je regarde des tof de petits juifs de 2et 3 ans a poil, tain je bande grave la, jimagine que je viole une petite juive de 10 ans
<CoIn-> skoi le chan d'undernet deja?
<CoIn-> des ircops?
<Shes> moi mon penis est dur la, je regarde des tof de petits juifs de 2et 3 ans a poil, tain je bande grave la, jimagine que je viole une petite juive de 10 ans
<Shes> #undernet
<Shes> j'y suis op

Translation: Shes: "my penis is hard now as I looking at pictures of small 2 and 3 years old naked little jewish, hello I have a huge boner now, I imagine raping a little 10 years old jewish girl"

Now the following translation is interesting:
- CoIn: what is the undernet channel again?
- CoIn: where IRCops are?
- Shes: #undernet
- She's: I'm an operator there


Next I go and ask for some help on #undernet and get banned. Here is the paste of my status window:

* You were kicked from #undernet by X ((shes) troll)-
#undernet Cannot send to channel
-
* jopla (~casc@62-14-57-252.inversas.jazztel.es) Quit (Quit)
-

Meaning that an IRCoperator can flood a channel with anti jewish child rape anthology . Now I slowly start to understand why undernet doesn't want to include "racism" in the forbidden things such as child rape (now I wonder) and password transmission.

Anyway the petition is on its way. If this person remains an IRCoperator I am seriously thinking about looking for legal measures to be taken. Such things, especially coming from operators of the #undernet channel are unacceptable.

Best regards

CoIn



_________________
Onx
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:45 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:55 am
Posts: 10
After talking to some friends, it appears that #undernet is not the official undernet channel.

This is weird, how can you guys let some irresponsible people create a channel called #undernet, thus creating confusion in the mind of people who didn't visit the website (I'd roughly say 90% of the users)?

Anyway if undernet therefore is not involved in this disgusting flood, it still motivates me even more to write the petition, and hope that SOME people will want to do what is in their power to clearly make the difference between undernet and racist haters... by taking X away from their chan for example.

The chans will still exist, so the freedom of speach will remain. But undernet will have no official role in the protection of that channel, which, I think, is an important symbolic.

Best regards,

CoIn



_________________
Onx
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:11 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 12:20 pm
Posts: 67
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Well, those who believe what has been discussed so far is just, can contribute to the cause and sign our petition. Topic will be left open for testimonials.



_________________
"Gods do not suffer pride in anyone but themselves." - Herodotus

jasee
http://forum.undernet.org/
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:56 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:55 pm
Posts: 19
jasee, you seem to have forgotten that the freedom of speech - although a constitutional right - can go only as far as it does not damage or wrong the life or the dignity of the person(s) being talked to. Actually, unknowingly, you defined the very point, where the person expressing his opinion is subject to sanctions as prescribed by law, no matter how important his right to the freedom of speech might be:
Quote:
Your only argument is that you're being harassed.

.. and that's enough.

The Channel Service AUP has at least one major flaw in it. Which stands as a good argument for its revision.
Quote:
Channel registration application is not a right, but a privilege granted subject to conditions.

And what are those conditions please? - It is probably only a mistake in the language, but actually "channel registration application" is a right and it is a right for everyone, simply because asking for something cannot be a privilege, even if somebody says so. Therefore it is a right to request for a channel the presence of the Channel Service Command Bot (X), but it is only a privilege to be having it, "granted subject to conditions".

The freedom of speech - if it is a matter at all - does not come so far as to ensure a service being supplied to anyone who might ask for it. As a consequence, this issue has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Instead it has everything to do with Cservice policy fairness. As it stands in the AUP:
Quote:
Channel Services (X) will not be provided for any channel involved in child pornography, the trading of warez or any copywritten material including mp3's and dvd's or the illegal trading of credit cards, passwords etc. We will no longer register any bot lending, shell or bnc (vhosts) channels.

Why not? Because it's illegal? Even if it is, according to law, the provider of communication services is NOT responsible in any way for the content of the communication. (Take a look at Cubby vs. Compuserve Inc. and Blumenthal vs. Drudge and AOL Inc.) Even if it would be responsible, it could not be prosecuted because Cservice is only virtually existent. And by the way, does Undernet exist as a company somewhere? Does it have any legal form? Undernet's servers are spread across America and Europe. According to which legislation should a felony be prosecuted if it would be committed? And besides, if bot- and bnc-lending is a good enough reason to deny the Cservice Bot, why is racism, nationalism or xenophobia, in general, not good enough?

Questions, questions, questions...


Simple truth is that the Channel Service AUP is nothing more than a spit in the eye. As I wrote it in some other post, the chances that Undernet is a democracy are somewhat comparable to the chance that anybodys 90-year old shortsighted grandma will find her lost glasses in the middle of a hurricane. And then I ask myself: what is this AUP truly good for? Why don't you just say: "We do as we please."? It would be easier to read, it wouldn't create false expectations and it would certainly come closer to the truth.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:50 pm 
Senior Cservice Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:47 am
Posts: 564
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
CService Response:

This is a rights question, who has the right to do what....

On undernet Freedom of Speech is given with the following limits...

Channels ops can do what they like based on the channels own rules... in short, in a channel with no rules, it's channel ops can be as racist or whatever they like, or simply have fun kicking people out of the channel with no reason at all for doing it, this is their right as a Channel op.

Channel users are guests of the channel, therefore must respect the simple fact that a channel op could remove them from the channel for no reason at all.

Now, in example, a person spouting racist comments in one channel gets kicked from that channel is still free to try any of the other 40,000+ other channels on the Undernet, in order to exercise their right to do that.

CService and Undernet do have some guidelines as mentioned by others, but the majority of them are based around protecting the network, and its services.


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 Page 1 of 3 [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: