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HISTORY ... options/methods
Poll ended at Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:42 pm
 WEB only  14%  14%  [ 18 ]
 IRC only  2%  2%  [ 2 ]
 Both  15%  15%  [ 19 ]
 490+  7%  7%  [ 9 ]
 495+  7%  7%  [ 9 ]
 500 only  16%  16%  [ 21 ]
 Last 5  3%  3%  [ 4 ]
 Last 10  11%  11%  [ 14 ]
 1 Week  5%  5%  [ 7 ]
 2 Weeks  20%  20%  [ 26 ]
Total votes : 129

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 Post subject: Re: HISTORY or Manager/Admin Log
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:50 pm 
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The results of votes says ONLY manager should be able to issue this command and 2 weekly log record will be ok. But we're all know that very well MIA will always happens so this feature will not be so useful if it goes to belong to manager only. As an manager I can always be away for more than 2 weeks and when I come back will not find out any recorded logs in during my absence and it will be very late to give out any action, it will delay the system of channel management too and my trusted admins who gives access to people will not check if their decisions are right or not coz they will not be able to check who performed a massban or access removal. Since it is 450+ trusted channel admins who rules the channel and managing it, also giving\removing access to the people then LET them check it up by themselves.

Best Regards/RevivaL



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 Post subject: Re: HISTORY or Manager/Admin Log
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:02 pm 
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Why try to adjust the system when it already has preventive measures like Manager Change (temporary). This means Revival that you shouldn't include MIA in the equation since a channel manager could easily transfer managership temporarily if they plan to be away for 3 weeks or more.
At least that's the advice we always give out in CService, meaning that idle and absent managers who do not appoint temporary mgrs are simple exceptions and which do not need an adjust to the 2 week period.

During managership transfer, the temporary appointed manager is 500 and can easily keep track of the movements and log history in order to act accordingly.



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 Post subject: Re: HISTORY or Manager/Admin Log
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:08 pm 
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Panzer wrote:
Why try to adjust the system when it already has preventive measures like Manager Change (temporary). This means Revival that you shouldn't include MIA in the equation since a channel manager could easily transfer managership temporarily if they plan to be away for 3 weeks or more.
At least that's the advice we always give out in CService, meaning that idle and absent managers who do not appoint temporary mgrs are simple exceptions and which do not need an adjust to the 2 week period.

During managership transfer, the temporary appointed manager is 500 and can easily keep track of the movements and log history in order to act accordingly.

Be honest and tell me which ones of these 2 you see more frequently in the #CService, MIA situations or temp manager changes ? and lets not forget that most of them are rejected.... :wink:
Lets put away the old rules and bureaucracy for a minute now and think clearly ...
We are not talking about a .gov secret ... I think the +490 should have access to it, even 450 like I said before, at least there are other commands as well at 450 (trusted admins doooh) I don't see any reason of adding more "stages" to access levels since we are trying to make things simpler and not to clog them more then they are.
What's next a command at level 497 498 and 499 ?
Think about it.... we are not doing this for those that have more then 10 years experience on IRC, I think most of those ones know already the undernet and add trustful admins to their teams :wink:
We should do constructive things that help the new comers to understand X commands... :)



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 Post subject: Re: HISTORY or Manager/Admin Log
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:56 pm 
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Dooku already used my words to answered you, additionaly I can say we should consider all the possiblity, the problem will not be appointing a temp manager, the problem might be you providing such a feature and letting ONLY manager issue this command without consider manager's allowed absent duration, and restricting the log recording duration in max 2 week is might be another less thing coming with it. As dooku pointed out a fact above; in cservice we always suggesting people to appoint a temp manager after they faced to MIA, they were didnt know or forgot to do, no matter, we should consider the all possiblity. A channel management shouldn't wait manager's return to issue this command as it will be very late. If i am an 499 and ONLY me managing the channel includes adding\removing people then I should be able to check to whom I gave access, if the one of them give access to another username in order to give a massban then removed it I should check it as fast as possible, I can't wait 21 days to ask an manager, as he wont be able to receive those logs as those logs will be removed after 14 days.

Regards/RevivaL



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 Post subject: Re: HISTORY or Manager/Admin Log
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:20 am 
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Revival wrote:
If i am an 499 and ONLY me managing the channel includes adding\removing people then I should be able to check to whom I gave access, if the one of them give access to another username in order to give a massban then removed it I should check it as fast as possible, I can't wait 21 days to ask an manager, as he wont be able to receive those logs as those logs will be removed after 14 days.

Regards/RevivaL


To answer to this, then the manager made a big mistake of appointing you as a channel administrator. Manager should only add trustworthy operators as 400 or higher; so such situations as you explained above to be avoided.

As for the rest it's manager responsabillity or task to know what's going on with his channel. If the manager goes away, he should appoint a temporary manager which has to be one of his trustworthy (499 level) operators and take care of the channel while the current manager is away and still history can be checked by the one you appointed. Other than that either way if you don't want nobody to see the history of the channel but yourself, you simply don't add nobody at level 490 or 495.

History should be used only by the managers; as the channel itself it's their responsabillity. And i'm highly positive the level required for this feature will be 500 because of CService AUP.



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 Post subject: Re: Auto INVITE
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:42 am 
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History of a username can only be seen by officials by now in order to indentify the real owner of a username in case it was hacked or compromised.

However I personally wouldn't like X to keep track of my every move i make with my username cause i'd end up seeing unnecessary things which for me would be highly annoying and may be for officials as well in case of an compromised username and i doubt you would like to see how many commands you issued at X such as (info's of a username / channel / modif's of an access etc) or any modification at your account ;)

P.s : if your suggestion was any good, then it would have been already discussed or implemented. You always can come up with other ideas which could actually make the Channel services better or why not? UnderNet. Keep your chin up :thumbsup:



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 Post subject: Re: HISTORY or Manager/Admin Log
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:10 am 
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[quote="Spidel] To answer to this, then the manager made a big mistake of appointing you as a channel administrator. Manager should only add trustworthy operators as 400 or higher; so such situations as you explained above to be avoided.

As for the rest it's manager responsabillity or task to know what's going on with his channel. If the manager goes away, he should appoint a temporary manager which has to be one of his trustworthy (499 level) operators and take care of the channel while the current manager is away and still history can be checked by the one you appointed. Other than that either way if you don't want nobody to see the history of the channel but yourself, you simply don't add nobody at level 490 or 495.

History should be used only by the managers; as the channel itself it's their responsabillity. And i'm highly positive the level required for this feature will be 500 because of CService AUP.[/quote]

Tell me what is the purpose of this feature's cereation? If you're right, and everything under channel management's responsiblty then why CSC planning to provide such a feature to let you check who made a massban or who removed someone's access etc.. What I were pointed out is far away to your mentality, you're still reading the same book, but time is changing and this story is got dated. Wake up, we're talking about a new feature which is will help you to resolve your bad decision. I didn't ask what will happen if manager failed to login for more than 21+ days, this is another topic. I said managers are allowed to be away almost 21 days in this case manager will come back in during this period but will not receive the wanted logs as it's usage period will be expired after 14 days, and why channel management should wait for manager's return? manager already appoints some admins to run his\her channel, manager dont wish to deal with everything, thats why 450+ trusted channel admins own some privileged commands, they are the ONLY one who adding\removing people so they should check it's results, If they're choosen to runs to channels then they deserving to issue this command. Otherwise this feature is just disappoint on my eyes. Come back to me some logical ideas to disproove my opinions. Dont act like I am newbie, I know this random answers given to guests in cservice already.

Best Regards/RevivaL



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 Post subject: Re: HISTORY or Manager/Admin Log
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:22 am 
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A channel can NOT be managed only by one person and since when u ban a user it shows your username next to the reason I don't see why should not other admins be able to see those things that happened less then 14 days ago.
What's the feature's purpose if only one person can see those important things (modifications) ?
Imagine a real chat channel with at least 80 - 90 real users or even bigger and a gang of at least 10 ops Those admins (+450) must monitor the ops action or otherwise we could come back to that hush reply that we give in #CService "add only those that you trust" right ?
A channel always has a management team ... since a user (applicant/manager/owner) can't run a channel by his own, I mean he can't just sit in a channel alone and wait for users to come by ... :alien:
And btw adding this feature to the +450 command will make managers to think again before doing this +1 responsibility added :wink:



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 Post subject: Re: Auto INVITE
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:28 am 
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Spidel wrote:
History of a username can only be seen by officials by now in order to indentify the real owner of a username in case it was hacked or compromised.

However I personally wouldn't like X to keep track of my every move i make with my username cause i'd end up seeing unnecessary things which for me would be highly annoying and may be for officials as well in case of an compromised username and i doubt you would like to see how many commands you issued at X such as (info's of a username / channel / modif's of an access etc) or any modification at your account ;)

P.s : if your suggestion was any good, then it would have been already discussed or implemented. You always can come up with other ideas which could actually make the Channel services better or why not? UnderNet. Keep your chin up :thumbsup:

I agree with you thanks :)



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 Post subject: Re: Auto INVITE
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:29 am 
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Spidel still... this is a chat network, where we should have fun, this becomes like a gov. thing... I don't like the sound of it.
I know officials are being monitored that way, at least they have some responsibilities , some access to some infos and such but I don't see it ok for users.
Being noticed via e-mail when you change something imp to your channel/username is perfect as it is.

Just my 2 cents :wink:



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 Post subject: Re: HISTORY or Manager/Admin Log
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:07 am 
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Quote:
Tell me what is the purpose of this feature's cereation? If you're right, and everything under channel management's responsiblty then why CSC planning to provide such a feature to let you check who made a massban or who removed someone's access etc.. What I were pointed out is far away to your mentality, you're still reading the same book, but time is changing and this story is got dated.


In case you didn't know which i'm sure you haven't. Basically HISTORY feature It's to monitor the ops actions; as for the channel itself, you operate it as you are the channel manager and you're fully responsable for ops actions. You have to know what the operators are doing in your channel otherwise you might end up getting your channel suspended because they somehow abused the system.

Quote:
Dont act like I am newbie, I know this random answers given to guests in cservice already.


I don't know whether you are or not, but sometimes i hardly understand you. :(



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 Post subject: Re: HISTORY or Manager/Admin Log
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:11 am 
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Dooku wrote:
A channel can NOT be managed only by one person and since when u ban a user it shows your username next to the reason I don't see why should not other admins be able to see those things that happened less then 14 days ago.
What's the feature's purpose if only one person can see those important things (modifications) ?


It can be run by one person, then again you are the manager and as i said on my previous you're fully responsable of the channel as you were the registrant and you agreed our terms to register the channel. Ops are there to maintain the channel not to run it. Managers are supposed to run it (creating the channel guidelines / taking care of the channel's access list) and so forth.



Quote:
Imagine a real chat channel with at least 80 - 90 real users or even bigger and a gang of at least 10 ops Those admins (+450) must monitor the ops action or otherwise we could come back to that hush reply that we give in #CService "add only those that you trust" right ?


See answer #1.

P.S : Admins of the channel you run or you name it are supposed to help for a better management of the channel by advising the manager. Not to control it or by any chances to run it, that's not their task ;)

Considering that most of the users has voted for this feature to be available only for the managers, explains a lot. Why there are so many that wants it at this level, nevertheless the votes aren't yet to be closed but the last word on level required has the undernet admins. Meanwhile I keep my fingers crossed.



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 Post subject: Re: Auto INVITE
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:45 am 
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Dooku wrote:
Spidel still... this is a chat network, where we should have fun, this becomes like a gov. thing... I don't like the sound of it.



I know it's a chat network and irc is supposed to be fun but when it comes to your security or in general it becomes very important. I for one, i'm having fun on IRC sometimes, in my worse days i don't even bother to join it.

Quote:
I know officials are being monitored that way, at least they have some responsibilities , some access to some infos and such but I don't see it ok for users.


I couldn't agree with you more. Users has to know their security question / answer or any other private information concerning his/her username.


Quote:
Being noticed via e-mail when you change something imp to your channel/username is perfect as it is.


Email?! EVEN WORSE. Remember most of the hacking cases are done through emails. If it's another email specifically to get your username logs in it, woulda been better but still emails can be easily hacked and yet another thing it's just a waste of time.

As for the channel, /msg X history via IRC or WEB, let's hope it will be voted accordingly and be implemented by the end of august.

Now quick question: Why in the earth you would like to get your username logs in email or on irc? to see what or do what? Your username private information are withheld only by you which i assume it's more than enough in case something happens with your username.

P.S : Any modification in record made to your username, you'll get the email either to confirm the change or just to acknowledge that you have made a change in your username.

:thumbsup:



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 Post subject: Re: HISTORY or Manager/Admin Log
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:06 am 
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Correct but also many have voted the 490+ and 495+ meaning if you add those 2 ... in the both situation users don't want the 500 as much as they want the 490 or 495 so ... yea we should all keep our fingers crossed :lol:



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 Post subject: Re: Auto INVITE
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:14 am 
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Quote:
Email?! EVEN WORSE. Remember most of the hacking cases are done through emails. If it's another email specifically to get your username logs in it, woulda been better but still emails can be easily hacked and yet another thing it's just a waste of time.

As for the channel, /msg X history via IRC or WEB, let's hope it will be voted accordingly and be implemented by the end of august.

Now quick question: Why in the earth you would like to get your username logs in email or on irc? to see what or do what? Your username private information are withheld only by you which i assume it's more than enough in case something happens with your username.

P.S : Any modification in record made to your username, you'll get the email either to confirm the change or just to acknowledge that you have made a change in your username.


I understand but even if those logs would be seen only by officials I don't want it, lets think about the risks as well, we all know that even the officials are not entirely safe since CService had some leeks in the past and this didn't happened once ... :-?
If they want they can help you using their privileges there is no need for anyone to see what I'm typing... or what I'm checking or what ever I'm doing, I don't think it will be fully objective.



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